Appendix to Fourth report of the Commissioners : minutes of evidence, October to December, 1907.

  • Great Britain. Royal Commission on Vivisection (1906)
Date:
1907
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Licence: Public Domain Mark

Credit: Appendix to Fourth report of the Commissioners : minutes of evidence, October to December, 1907. Source: Wellcome Collection.

    276/316 (page 270)
    S. Coleridge 11 Dec. 1907. Mr. D. J. Hamilton 270 that correction now, so that it may appear on the notes as part of your evidence?—If you please. Will you read my letter then? 19977. Yes. Then the letter will appear on the notes, and you will say whether that is your evidence. You say: “Dear Mr. Ram,—On reading over my evidence and considering it with due care, I cannot but feel that it would be unwise to qualify the word ‘ pain’ with any adjectives in my Bill. I write to you to say this because under examination by you, at Questions 11265, 11266, and 11267 I said I would agree to add the word ‘serious.’ This, I think, was a somewhat hasty con- cession. The addition of the word ‘serious’ or ‘severe’ before the word ‘pain’ would, I sincerely fear, lead to the legal permission of pain to an amount I could never think morally justifiable.—Very faithfully yours, Stephen Coleridge” ?—I am very much obliged to you for putting that letter on the notes, 19978. That is the correction that you wish to make? —If you please. 19979. (Dr. Gaskell.) With respect to Question 15712, T should like to get clear what the words of Dr. Crile are. You say: “We are told in the contro] experi- ments, as well as in this, that the dog was not under full anesthesia ” ?—Yes. 19980. I have not got in my own mind what Dr. Crile’s words were. It is in Experiment CXXXIIT. ?— These are the words: “In the control experiments, as well as in this, the dog was not under full anesthesia. In the former the animal struggled on application of the flame; after the injection of cocaine he did not. There was apparently blocking of the sensory impulses from the paw.” 19981. That is all right. I wanted to know where those words actually occurred ?—Yes, they are in the book. 19982. (Chairman.) Of course, Mr. Coleridge, when I suggested that it would be advisable to put some state- ment as to Professor Gotch’s evidence in whatever you intend to publish you will understand that I was not myself suggesting at all the publication of any evidence taken before the Commission P—Quite so. 19983. I say that simply because it is not a matter for the Commission; it is a matter, as you know, for the Stationery Office ?Certainly. We have only done it because the official report is in such small type, and we wrote to the Stationery Office about it, a ws Note.—Mr. Coleridge subsequently requested the Commission to allow the following extract from an article by Mr, Edwin Wooton* in the Dublin Journal of Medical Science for 1885 (Vol. 80, p. 290) to be added here, as he had intended to call the attention of the Commission to it while dealing with the question of the attitude of some vivisectors. The extract is as follows: “T, some time since, began the study of experimental phenomena in the brute world in relation with tuber- culosis and other major diseases, and have continued it until the time of writing. It is a pursuit full of diffi. culties—legal, social, and scientific. The investigator is hampered by absurd anti-vivisection laws; to evade and defy which is his simple duty; and he is annoyed by the sentimentalism of weak-minded neighbours or acquaintances who may become aware that he is engaged in research, and who regard him as a nine- teenth century ‘six hundred three score and six.’” Colonel The Right Hon. A. M. Lockwoop, c.v.0., M.P. Sir W. S. Cuurcn, Bart., K.c.B., M.D. Sir W. J. CoLirs, M.P., M.D., F.B.C.S. Sir J. McFapyeEan, M.B. 19984. (Chairman.) You are Professor of Pathology at the University of Aberdeen ?—Yes. _ 19985. And you have been nominated by the Univer- sity of Aberdeen to give evidence before us ?—Yes. 19986. I believe the University of Aberdeen, like some other universities, have not been desirous to give evidence on the general question, after having read the evidence which has been given. by other phy- siologists Quite so; they deem that sufficient evi- dence has been given on that line already, and that there is not any further necessity for it. 19987. And they only now desire you to come for- ward with a view to your giving evidence about some special inquiries which you have made with regard to diseases in sheep, in the course of which you had recourse to experiments on animals ?—That ig so. 19988. I believe the experiments which you are going ue tell us of were first of all carried on privately ?— res. 19989. And then afterwards, at the suggestion of the Highland and Agricultural Society, who desired you to continue them %—Yes. mii And shen SAA gs Chairman of a Depart- mental Commi which was appointed by the B of Agriculture in 1901 ?—That He SO. Bir See 19991. And who issued their Report in 19062—Yes, 19992. That Report is contained in three parts sented to Parliament, numbered Cd. 2954 ?—Yes. 19995. And in that Report there is a detailed account of the researches which -yhave been spread over four vears /—That is so. re- 2932, 2933, and . s— , = # ~ ry ’ Sir M. D. CHaALMERs, K.C.B., 0.8.1. Mr. A. J: Ram; kc, Mr. W. H. GASKELL, M.D., F.B.S. c Mr. G. WItsoNn, M.D., LL.D. aia Captain C. Bicuam, c.m.c. (Secretary). — fON “, “ S 19994. I will take you at once then to your evi- dence on that subject. The Committee was appointed as you told us, in 1901, by the late Mr. Hanbury, then President of the Board of Agriculture?—Yes. __ 19995. And the object was to investigate the diseases of sheep known as louping-ill and brax io Yes. —— 19996. Would you explain to us what the extent of the mischief was ?/—These two diseases of sheep that we were appointed to inquire into are extremely disas- trous, and the cause of enormous mortality all over Great Britain more or less, especially in Scotland, the northern counties of England, and also in Ireland they prevail in all three divisions of the British Tsles, and the mortality from them is something terrible, so much so that in certain districts where they pre- vail sheep farming as a profitable industry is so ham- pered that it is threatened with extinction, if that hag not already occurred in many places. f 19997. Has that been going on for many years#—— It has been going on for a great many years—as far back as we have any records, apparently. 19998. Has it been worse of late years?—Yes, I think so. 4 19999. One has not regarded sheep farming as being an industry that was in danger; the general public were not aware of the extent of the mischief, at any rate, until recently ?—Some parts of Scotland have become depopulated on account of the enormous loss. As much as a quarter of a million of money, it 18° said, is lost from braxy alone, and that is probably an under-estimate of the total. —