Appendix to Fourth report of the Commissioners : minutes of evidence, October to December, 1907.

Great Britain. Royal Commission on Vivisection (1906)

Date:: 1907

Catalogue details

Licence: Public Domain Mark

Credit: Appendix to Fourth report of the Commissioners : minutes of evidence, October to December, 1907. Source: Wellcome Collection.

9/316 (page 3)

If the poisonous dose, for example, of a drug be half a grain (and that is an exaggerated case with regard to some of them), and that is taken into the body and causes the death of the individual, the most accurate chemical processes would not be able to isolate from the remains of that body anything like half a grain, and even if rescued, as in the case of aconitin, chemical] tests would not enable one to say what it was; physio- logical tests might, and probably would, 12866. Have experiments increased your knowledge of those poisons that you speak of—aconitin and alkaloids? —They have materially, regarding their action, and it is because of their action upon animals having been ascertained by experiments that one is able by taking an alkaloid, of which we do not know the precise nature, and putting it into an animal, to get to know that the poison is aconitin. I may point out in that connection that there are other questions associated with poisoning of very great importance ; for example, the best antidotal remedy for acute arsenical poisoning, assuming a person wilfully or accidentally poisoned by arsenic, was really brought into practical operation by experiments on animals. We had never known about this except theoretically until it was distinctly found to be valuable from researches upon animals. In the early thirties of last century in theory it was believed that the use of a certain preparation of iron would be bene- ficial. Between 1834 and 1840 certain experiments were made on the dog and on the horse, which showed that this hydrated ferric-oxide, freshly made, would be dis- tinctly antidotal. In 1861 Dr. Watt published in the “Ohio Medical and Surgical Journal” for March of that year certain experiments which he performed on five dogs, in which he gave them poisonous doses of arsenic, and at varying intervals thereafter this freshly-prepared iron oxide, and showed the beneficial effect which resulted therefrom. 12867. He gave it as an antidote ?—He gave it as an antidote, and his object was to show that this substance was an efficient antidote if used after the poisoning within a given period. : 12868. You say that he found that it was a satisfac- tory antidote. Did the dogs recover ?—I will just tell you the facts. He administered arsenic alone to five dogs in different doses from three grains upwards, and all of those dogs died from the effects of the poison within eight hours after the administration. To a second series of twelve dogs he administered varying doses of arsenic, all of them lethal doses, but after- wards administered to them the antidote, in some in- stances not until the poisonous symptoms had appeared, but all the animals recovered ; and it is upon evidence of that kind that we now in all our books and all our teaching recommend this as an antidote to arsenic. 12869. And is it used for arsenical poisoning of human beings ?—Yes, it is the antidote used to-day. 12870. Does it have the same effect. as it had upon the dogs, of curing them ?—Yes, there have been many eases recorded’ of recoveries from arsenic poisoning where it has been administered. 12871. Do you attribute that discovery entirely to _ those experiments?—Surely. Before that it could only be theory. _ 12872. What gave rise to the theory ?—The theory is that if you take a solution of arsenious acid you can precipitate that as the insoluble salt of iron with an iron preparation. You can do that in a test tube— everybody knew that—but the question came to be how could it be practically applied to the human stomach? Could you utilise in any way the human stomach as you would use the test tube? And it was with the object of discovering that practically that these and many other experiments were carried through, 12873. Was this dose that was given as an antidote to human beings the same liquid that was put in to operate upon the arsenic in the tube?—The same preparation Precisely, only in the human stomach the quantity of Iron oxide must be considerably increased in order to get the same effect. 12874. Then this was a case in which from chemical tests you had discovered the probability of the remedy being effective?—Yes, through the physiological _ Medium of application to individual animals. 12875. And it. was to make sure of the results in the human stomach that you tested it on animals ?—Yes, and in order to know how it could be made sure—by what doses. _ 12876. (Sir Mackenzie Chalmers.) What I understs.nd is that this remedy was first tried in a test tube, then tried on a dog, and then, having answered those two tests, it was used successfully with human beings ?— Yes; the experiments on dogs determined the amount of the antidote to be used to the poison—the method o? use 12877. (Chairman.) What I wanted to get, and what I think you have given me, is that the scientific fact that this was an antidote was discovered in the tube by chemistry ?—Yes, exactly. 12878. But it was not safe or certain as a remedy to human beings until you had tested it upon animals ? Surely not, because we cannot use the human stomach as a test tube—the two things are different. 12879. Are there any other special cases of valuable testing of poisons to which you wish to call attention ? —I desire to draw attention to one more, and it is a rather interesting one. It is the case of a very fatally poisonous arsenical gas called arseniuretted hydrogen. A few years ago I had two cases of this occurring in a very curious way. A man engaged in chemical works in the manufacture of bleaching powder in a Welldon’s retort suddenly became overpowered, and had to be taken out. He died within three days. The man who followed him also was overcome, but he recovered. The process of making bleaching powder by a Well- don’s retort is this: Hydrochloric acid is mixed with a certain proportion of manganese dioxide; the man- ganese dioxide acts upon hydrochloride acid, liberates the chlorine gas, which saturates the lime and forms the bleaching powder. The retort is made to work continuously, night and day, for from two to three weeks. At the end of that time a workman has to proceed in from the top by means of a rope ladder after the retort has been steamed out with live steam to dig out and remove what is called by the workmen the mud, the débris, which lies at the bottom of the still. I was called in to consult with other doctors regarding this man before his death, and after seeing the man I went to the chemical works and got the details of the process just as I have described them. I came to the conclusion that the man died from this gas. The case required to be reported to the Home Office. It was reported, and the man having died, a post-mortem examination of his body was made, and Sir Thomas Stevenson, who chemically examined the remains, found arsenic therein. The interesting thing about that case is that this arsenical gas did not exist in the retort when the men went into it. As the imple- ments for the removal of this mud they took an iron shovel and a zinc galvanised iron pail, and they them- selves manufactured the gas which caused their death. They manufactured on a large scale what we know as the Marsh’s test for arsenic, after Mr. Marsh, who invented the test in 1836. They generated the gas which killed them. Since these cases I have tn- vestigated the literature of the world, and I have found a large number ; I have collected over 100 cases of deaths from this cause in a large variety of occupa- tions, and perhaps your Lordships will be aware that in the State Ballooning Department of France several deaths have already occurred from this gas being pre- sent in the impure hydrogen by which the balloons are inflated. All the evidence that we have regarding the physiological effect of this gas is from experiments made on the Continent. I am not aware of a single experiment having been made in this country on that subject. : 12880. What is the sort of experiment on an animal that you would suggest, if it had to be made (—The experiments on the Continent have been by subjecting dogs to varying percentage proportions of this gas mixed with air, and studying the symptoms that follow. My attention will be directed, not to the result of the gas, but to the prevention or cure of 1t when it happens. Nothing has been done in that way so far as | know. There have been various sugges- tions. 12881. You would have first to ascertain what in all probability would be the antidote, I suppose ?—Yes, for this reason. This gas acts differently from arsenic itself; it breaks up the corpuscles in the blood ; it acts directly upon the blood, and thus an antidote 14 more difficult to be arrived at. 12882. But when you have discovered the antidote you will have to test it upon animals ?—Yes, we must ise animals. I would not dare uve anything else +han an animal for this. Mr. John Glaister, M.D. 23 Oct. 1907.