Appendix to Third report of the Commissioners : minutes of evidence, April to July, 1907.
- Great Britain. Royal Commission on Vivisection (1906)
- Date:
- 1907
Licence: Public Domain Mark
Credit: Appendix to Third report of the Commissioners : minutes of evidence, April to July, 1907. Source: Wellcome Collection.
252/272 page 246
![246 12497. And in the case of those prolonged experi- ments in which it is necessary to administer an anesthetic through a tracheotomy tube, do you think that there is any difficulty in regulating the dose of the anesthetic ?—None whatever. 12498. It is quite easy to regulate the dose of the anesthetic in proportion to the air supplied to the animal ?—Quite. 12499. Therefore, if the dose of anesthetic was in- sufficient, the dose of air would be insufficient, and the animal would die?—That is so. 12500. That is your opinion ?—That is my opinion. 12501. Have you any experience of administering morphia to dogs before you commence or as soon as you commence administering the chloroform, giving the two together?—I have no personal experience. 12502. Perhaps, then, you would not like to state before the Commission whether or not it is true that subsequent to the injection of morphia a lighter and less amount of chloroform is required?—I can cer- tainly state that, because I have frequently employed morphia in the human subject before other drugs, such as chloroform or ether or scopolamine, and I have always found the amount of general aneesthetic re- quired extremely small when morphia is given before- hand. The same, of course, would obtain in the case of the lower animals. 12503. Is it a common practice in human patients to administer a small dose of morphia subsequently to the chloroform ?—Yes, it is very common. 12504. The purpose of it being what?—To keep the patient quiet and to prevent their having any subse- quent pain, and to ensure sleep and rest. 12505. Just to keep them quiet ?—Yes. 12506. Can you tell the Commission anything about the action of morphia upon dogs apart from chloro- form?—I do not think, really, my evidence would be of much value upon the point. 12507. Have you any experience of administering opium, in the form of tincture of opium, to dogs ?— No. 12508. You would not like to say what would be the effect of injecting a drachm of opium into the veins of a dog ?—No. 12509. Would it be subject to pain ?—No. 12510. Taking your division of the effects of chlorc- form into three degrees 2—I only got so far as the third ; there are five degrees really. | 12511...I think you said the first degree was until loss of control of voluntary movement ?—Yes. 12512. The second degree was when the movements were not controlled voluntarily ?—Yes. 12513. And the third degree was that of complete surgical aneesthesia ?—Yes. 12514. In labour cases. chloroform is frequently used, is it not ?—Yes. 12515. Which degree of anesthesia do you produce then ?—The second, for alleviation of pain; not, of course, in a midwifery case necessitating a. surgical operation. 12516. I am speaking of natural labour, of course, not labour in which surgical aid has to be rendered? —That would be the second degree. If any operation has to be performed it would be the third degree. 12517. We have heard a great deal of the value of different terms here which I think have been. used without, perhaps, due consideration. You would con- sider incomplete anesthesia any form in which volun- tary movement remains ?—Yes. 12518. But would you consider it a condition of in- occurred ?—Oh, no. 12519. Is incomplete anssthesia a term that is used often by aneesthetists ?—Yes, I think so. 12520. And would it, in your mind, be equivalent to the term which has also been used before us of light aneesthesia ?—No. 12521. It would be something less than light aneesthesia?—Yes, in a way it is quite a different thing. Light anesthesia is complete ansesthesia ; light narcosis is complete anesthesia. 12522. You would include light anesthesia under complete anesthesia ]—Yes. 12523. It has also been put before us by a witness. here that, short of the abolition of the corneal reflex” you cannot have anesthesia. Is that so, in your opinion ?—I do not admit that. 12524. Is that belief held by any competent chloro- formist ?—I believe not. — 12525. Reflex movements, which are of very different. natures, can be called forth, can they not? Reflex movements of various sorts can be obtained in very different stages of anesthesia ?—That is so. 12526. That is to say, there are certain parts of the: ments in what one might call a deep state of anses- thesia ?—Certainly. ' 12527. That is in a state of anesthesia so complete that all muscular action almost is lost /—All voluntary. muscular action ? 12528. I meant all voluntary muscular action ?—Yeg.. 12529. Is so deep an anesthesia as that a condition which is often called for in surgical operations on man —I mean, absolute abolition of all movement ?—No, you cannot do that unless you kill your patient. 12550. But it is often done, is it not, in physiological operations upon animals for the sake of abolition of all movement /—If you have artificial respiration carried on, of course. i 12531. Therefore, the fact that occasionally reflex movements may be seen in animals which are being operated upon by physiologists or research workers is: no proof that they are not completely anesthetic, although it is a proof that they are not in the pro- foundest condition of anesthesia ?—That is so. 12532. (Sir William Collins.) Do you hold a vivisee- tion licence yourself ?—Yes. ey 12533. Have you held it for long 1For a good many years. ate 12534. What form of licence is it?-—-The ordinary form of licence. 12535. You have no certificate 7—No certificate. 12536. You hold it with a view to investigating the action of anesthetics ?—Quite so. 12537. And no pain would occur in any of your ex- periments ?—None. a LL 12538. Are there still some problems in connection. with anesthetics which require elucidation?—I am. sorry to say there are. - 12539. Should I be right in thinking that the dis: covery of anesthetics was not due to experiments ‘on’ animals ?—The actual discovery of anesthesia was not. Our knowledge of the precise action of anesthesia is, entirely due to such experiments. 12540. Is our knowledge of the precise action of anesthesia complete to-day?—Not complete, Our knowledge of very few subjects is complete. ig 12541. Have you witnessed any surgical operation of any magnitude upon a human subject under morphia as the only anzsthetic?—I ‘have never seen any. __ 12542. Would you advise it ?—Certainly not. 12543. You have used, and other witnesses have used the terms, apparently discriminating between them, of light anesthesia, incomplete anesthesia, and complete anesthesia ?—Yes. “sie 4 Seat Woes 12544. Would it be troubling you too much if I asked you to give us a definition of each of those three terms now ?—Complete anesthesia is that degree of narcosis where there is no pain felt. Incomplete Anesthesia is that degree of narcosis where pain is felt. Light anses: — thesia is complete anesthesia. You have complete anesthesia in profound narcosis; or you may have - complete anesthesia with light narcosis. That is as near as I can get to a definition. fie deh 12545. So far as I can gather, the appeal in each — case is to pain as the differentia?—Yes, “ =» 12546. Can you suggest any other test, not subjective, — but objective, by which the three varieties could be dis- criminated ? I. have already mentioned various ocular phenomena that guide one as to whether there is pain — or not pain, which would direct the anesthetist’s atten- tion to the presence or absence of pain—the ocular phenomena and purposive movement.](https://iiif.wellcomecollection.org/image/b32182181_0252.jp2/full/800%2C/0/default.jpg)
