Appendix to Third report of the Commissioners : minutes of evidence, April to July, 1907.

  • Great Britain. Royal Commission on Vivisection (1906)
Date:
1907
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Licence: Public Domain Mark

Credit: Appendix to Third report of the Commissioners : minutes of evidence, April to July, 1907. Source: Wellcome Collection.

    70/272 (page 64)
    poisonous ?—The hamadryad. . 8156. But there is another name for it?—The king cobra. F Can . Have you ever experimented on that r—TYes. I aie all hess to see wrecker they had the same action as cobra venom, and whether Calmette’s anti- venin made from cobra venom would act against the ‘other colubrine snakes, the hamadryad, the krait, and the banded krait. I found that they do have some action, but not enough to be of very practical use. 8158. The reason being that the physiological action of the two poisons is different ?—No, the physiological action is the same. I tested them all first, and they all had the same physiological action in paralysing the respiratory centres—that is to say, all the colubrine class and the seasnakes. The cobra antivenin does have some effect against all those, but it 1s very much less than the effect against the cobra itself. 8159, And it has no effect when you get it against viperine poison? —It has no practical effect really against any but the cobra. 8160. But the permanganate of potash if applied instantaneously operates, so far as you know, on all snake poisons that you have tried P—Yes. 8161. Did not Dr. Douglas Cunningham try some experiments for the Government of India P—Yes. 8162. They were negative, were they not, in their results ?—He tested a large number of reputed anti- dotes, but the results were all negative. 8163. And also he tried Calmette’s and Fraser’s anti- yenin ?—Yes; he showed that it had an effect, but the effect was not very strong; it required to be much stronger. 8164. Was that on account of the smal] doses ?— Yes; as a matter of fact, if you take a full quantity of cobra venom and you inject an average quantity, you will want 400 c.c. of Calmette’s serum of the usual strength to neutralise it; that is why it is not very practicable ; but, of course, a snake may often inject a small quantity, and then it may be efficient, but it cannot be relied upon by itself in every case. 8165. As regards the ligature, I suppose that the object of the ligature is to prevent the poison spread- ing into the system ?—Yes, 8166. But if you could not apply the permanganate of potash for some time, do I rightly understand that in spite of any ligature the poison does get into the system ?—I think that the poison would diffuse to a considerable extent in the limb, and make it much more difficult to neutralise it locally, When some time has elapsed I advocate making a much longer excision and applying the permanganate of potash more thoroughly. 8167. Can you catch up the poison then ?—Not alto- gether. 8168. To some extent. the permanganate gets into the circulation and catches it up ?—The permanganate does not get into the circulation. I have tried that, and I find that you cannot do it, for this reason: If you use the potassium salt permanganate, it is too poisonous to inject in sufficiently large doses. I tried to use the sodium permanganate, but I found that upon sterilising it by boiling first a lot of it gets precipitated and it is very difficult to use—it is more unstable. I have not been successful) with it. 8169. If you cannot apply the permanganate of potash at once and to some extent. the symptoms have set in, I suppose you apply other remedies as well in addition to it?—Yes, certainly ; you apply any remedy that you think may be of value in addition. 8170. How long after a bite is it of any use whatever to apply permanganate ?—The longest case I have got was four hours, 8171. Does some part of the poison remain locally as long as that ?—Yes, you can show it in this way: If you take a dose which is just fatal to an animal), if you Inject it intravenously it will kill the animal in’ 20 minutes, but if you inject the same dose subcutane- ously it takes 24 and often 48 hours to kill the animal; showing that it is absorbed comparatively slowly. I think the reason is the point which I have mentioned that when you make an incision at the seat. of injection you always find a bloodstained effusion of serum in 30 seconds. f{ think that is a protective agency to lessen the rapidity of absorption, as the absarption of a small a fatal dose may reach the circulation very rapidly before there has been much effusion to limit the absorption. ; 8172. Practically, then, the mortality of snake bite depends upon the amount of venom which happens to be injected ?—Yes, Me 8173. And therefore all figures would be more or lese. fallacious, because it all depends upon the dose ?—~ Undoubtedly. 8174. And to some extent, I suppose, it depends upom individual idiosyncrasy P—I doubt it. From experi- ments on animals I find no tendency of that kind. I should say that there is very little individual idiosyn— crasy. 8175. It is almost impossible, I suppose, to get am intravenous injection by means of ordinary snake very rapidly. 8176. On the chance of its being intravenously in- jected, how soon would it be fatal—in a couple of hours ?—If intravenously it would cause death quicker than that; it would not be likely to take more tham 10 to 15 minutes, but even less, 81764. In the ordinary ‘case, when a fatal dose is not: received, I suppose it is where clothing intervenes P— Yes, that is an important point. In this series I think that every one of the cases was inoculated not through clothes, but on the hand or foot. 8177. On the bare hand ?— Yes, that is an important point in the series where the snake was identified. 8178. Because if a man was bitten through the trousers ?—He might probably escape altogether. 8179. Have you tried the effect of permanganate of potash on scorpion poisoning?—I have not done so myself, but it has been tried in Egypt, I am told, and it has been found to be equally effective. It is used! now in Egypt, I am told, for scorpion poisoning. 8180. Rubbed in in the same way?—Yes, either rubbed in or injected. 8181. A great many natives in India are bitten by scorpions, are they not ?—We do not hear much of it. 8182. Because the cases are not usually fatal ?—Yes. 8183. Although they are very painful ?—Yes, they are common enough. I have used the permanganate of potash in another way. I have found it very useful im preventing tetanus infection in wounds. 8184. Will you tell us anything that you mow about that?—In Calcutta tetanus is an exceedingly commom disease. ; 8185. Because the whole of the road dust is full of it? —Yes ; so I carried out some experiments by putting a little dust from the Calcutta road under the skin of » rat, and I found that five out of six died of tetanus ; but if I added a few crystals of permanganate of potash to the dust, then I only lost one animal, and that was not from tetanus. I then carried out a further: series of experiments by scarifying the skin, rubbing in the dust, and using strong permanganate of potash solutions at different intervals, and I found by that: measure also, even up to an hour afterwards, it was: nearly always possible to prevent tetanus infection, although the control animals developed the disease. But permanganate of potash has also been used at my suggestion in cases of leopard bites. When persons are- shooting in the wilds and there is no doctor near, per- manganate crystals instilled into leopard bites, which are usually very fatal, in severe cases have prevented serious results from blood poisoning. : 8186. The serious results arising simply from the dirtiness of the leopard’s teeth?—Yes. I also sug- gested that it was worth trying in hydrophobia, and ene of the medical ‘officers in the South of India has: used it in a number of cases of dogs which have been bitten by mad dogs, and a number of them have beer saved apparently, and he is very enthusiastic about it. 8187. Using it according to your method of making: an incision and rubbing in the actual crystal ?—Yes,. so that evidently of late it appears to be of very wide: application. 8188. Is there a considerable death rate from tetanus: at Calcutta at the present time ?—Yes. _ 8189. And when a man scratches his hand on a road in Calcutta is this treatment -applied?—They are