Report of the Royal Commission on the practice of subjecting live animals to experiments for scientific purposes : with minutes and evidence and appendix / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of her Majesty.

Great Britain. Royal Commission on Vivisection (1875)

Date:: 1876

Credit: Report of the Royal Commission on the practice of subjecting live animals to experiments for scientific purposes : with minutes and evidence and appendix / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of her Majesty. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by Royal College of Physicians, London. The original may be consulted at Royal College of Physicians, London.

142/1052 (page 112)

$F. W. Pavy, action, you must be acquainted with what is healthy p'/e-Smitit 2124. But would he uot obtain that knowledge J3.A., M.D. l^y walking the hospitals, and seeing the effect of the disease upon the spinal cord ?—But supposing he did 21 Oct. 1875. simply that, he would profit by the information which had been gained by physiology. The teaching is dependent upon the knowledge which has been acquired, and this knowledge has been acquired through experimental physiology. 2125. Can you give me a case in which a man could be called in by a patient, and in which from the fact that he has not had that knowledge, he would be less likely to do the patient good ?—If he has simply got his knowledge from books or from lectures, the knowledge Avould not be impressed upon his mind in the same manner as if he got it from seeing the exjjerimeut performed. A man called in to treat a patient in the one case would have his Icnowledge at his command, in the other case it is possible the knowledge which he had acquired at lectures and likewise by reading would have vanished. 2126. Then, in fact, it comes to this, that you believe that in all cases the knowledge gained by sight is very much stronger than the knowledge gained by reading or« by hearing ?—I think the combination of the senses is needed. They hear, they I'ead, and they see the experiment itself; and going through those channels, the information is much more likely to be indelibly impressed upon the mind. 2127. {Lord Winmarleigh.) May I ask you whether all the experiments that jow have made at Guy's Hos]jital ha^'e had relation to benefits to be derived by the human frame from them ?—I have always had that in view. 2128. Never performed such experiments simply from purely physiological objects ?—It is physiology which is at the foundation of the treatment of disease. 2129. Forster.) Do you lay this great stress upon the student's seeing the pi'ocess upon this ground, that by seeing it, the knowledge that he gains by reading and hearing is very much deepened and confirmed, that is, the sensation upon him is much greater ; or do you also think that he does, in seeing the experiments, get some information that he would not otherwise obtain by hearing and reading ?—I do unquestionably. I think he is placed in an altered position. I think that by seeing an experiment performed, he is placed altogether in an altered position from what he would be in if he had not seen that experiment performed. He has got a foundation or substratum, as it were, which he could not other- wise have obtained. 2130. (J/r. Huxley.) Let me suggest another illustration of your view in the teaching of medicine. J presume that there is no teaching of medicine recognized unless there is a hospital attached ? —No. 2131. That is to say, nobody would for an instant suppose that medicine could be taught to any useful purpose unless the student, not only had the oppor- tunity of hearing disease described, but could go and see it in the hospital himself. That is a parallel case, is it not ?—It is. 2132. {Mr. Hictto7i.) Of course you do not mean to deny that many good physiologists have been educated without this kind of education ?—I should look upon them as physiologists occupying the same position as a physician who had not had practical experience. 2133. The argument is one of degree is it not ? In point of fact your argument goes to this, does it not. That you ought to see some sort of experiment on living human beings in order to get still greater knowledge ?—Certainly not. 2134. You would not deny, would you, that the knowledge would be larger which would be got by seeing the experiments on human beings ?—I do not think it would. 2135. Surely the physiology is not the same of human beings and of animals ?—There is no essential difference in fundamental points. 2136. The points at which the physiology of man branches off must be very numerous, must they not ? —^^If you take the great functions, circulation, re- spiration, and digestion, those functions are carried on in the same way in the lower animals as they are in the human subject. 2137. And you think that no fresh instruction would be derived from seeing the same kind of experi- ments on men in any case?—Certainly that is my opinion; it would be quite superfluoii's, not at all required. As regards mental action there Avould be a difi^erence certainly; but as regards the physical functions of hfe, they are performed in the same way in the lower animals as they are in the human subject. 2138. {Mr. Huxlnj.) That is to say, supposing we leave the phenomena of consciousness aside altogether, you could demonstrate all the truths laid down in a handbook of physiology upon a dog, could you not ?— Quite so. 2139. {3Ir. Hutton). The physiology of the brain is not the same, is it, in the dog and the human being ?—As regards the elementary functions it is ; the higher functions are different. 2140. Did the description which you gave just now of your experiments apply simply to the lecture room or to the laboratory also ?—I perform two sets of experiments, those which are directed towards mstruc- tion, and those which are directed towards research. 2141. Did what you said just now refer to the experiments directed towards research ?—The experi- ments directed towards instruction are invariably per- formed, whenever there is any cutting operation con- cerned, under the influence of an auEesthetic, and the experiments directed towards research are also almost invariably performed under the same state. I will not say that there may not have been an excep- tion, because in some instances I have thought that the chloroform may have interfered with the conditions to be observed, and in order to see whether that has been the case or not, the experiment has been per ■ formed without the chloroform. 2142. But it is usually employed in your laboratory as much almost as in the lecture room, is it ?—We never think of experimenting upon an animal without the chloroform; it must be something very special indeed to lead us to do so. 2143. Have you ever made experiments on the effect of strychnine on animals ?—Yes. 2144. And you have proved, have you not, that death under strychnine generally takes place from the ceasing of respiration ?—It does. 2145. In that case were you able to use chloro- form ?—Yes. 2146. The chloroform did not in that case interfere with the success of the experiment ?—No. There is an experiment which I perform at lecture in which the animal is placed under the influence of chloroform, and some strychnine is introduced into the circulation whilst the animal is under the influence of the chloro- form ; and whilst the animal is still under the influence of the chloroform it dies immediately. 2147. But if you keep up artificial respiration it does not die ?—But that is not done. 2148. But you have done such experiments yourself in the laboratory ?—Yes, I think I have. I was performing some experiments some years ago upon woorali and strychnine. 2149. And under those circumstances the animal woidd sufiTer, would it not, because you could not keep up the anjesthesia ?—I think the animal under the influence of the poison would not be in a position to feel pain in the same way as if the poison had not been used. 2150. You said that that handbook of physiology which has been referred to was used for accomplished physiologists. Now the very first line I read in it, This book is intended for beginners in physio- logical work. Does not that imply that the editors$