Report of the Royal Commission on the practice of subjecting live animals to experiments for scientific purposes : with minutes and evidence and appendix / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of her Majesty.

Great Britain. Royal Commission on Vivisection (1875)

Date:: 1876

Credit: Report of the Royal Commission on the practice of subjecting live animals to experiments for scientific purposes : with minutes and evidence and appendix / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of her Majesty. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by Royal College of Physicians, London. The original may be consulted at Royal College of Physicians, London.

155/1052 (page 125)

$2349. But supposing it to be needed for private persons, and not to be prejudicial in the case of physio- logical laboratories, you would not I suppose see any very great objection to it ?—I think it would be an objection if private individuals Avere prevented from following physiological experimentation, but I say that I do not lay great stress upon that because they are few, and probably will become fewer and fewer year by year. 2350. The restrictions which you yourself place, and which all those with whom you are acquainted place upon the practice in these public institutions ought, I presume, to be placed by private individuals upon their own practice?—Yes. 2351. And if there were reason to suppose that there were cases in which they were not so placed by them, the public sentiment might be allowed to express itself in regard to them in the form of some provision which would enforce those restrictions, might it not?—Yes. 2352. {T'o Dr. Burdon-Sanderson.') Have you any- thing else to say upon the bill introduced by Dr. Play- fair ?—First as regards the principle,—and what I mean by the principle of the bill is the principle of a licence,— I cannot see any objection to the principle of a licence, because I know very well what the working of licences is in other matters for which people are licensed, and I know that there is nothing in a licence which is oppressive, there is nothing objectionable in having to obtain a licence for any lawful purpose, and no particular inconvenience attending it, unless it were made inconvenient by the conditions ; so that there is nothing objectionable in the principle of a licence to do this act more than to do anything else. Then I should like to say something about a point which is not referred to in this bill, namely, the question of inspection. There is no provision for inspection in this bill, and I have very carefully tlionght over that question, and the way in which any inspection could be carried out. I cannot see that any inspection is possible. There is no example of a similar inspection of any other kind that I am aware of, and I do not see how the functions of an inspector could be use- fully performed ; and I am quite certain that it would lead to bad results if there were any appointment of inspectors, because of coiu-se in any institution (f am speaking first of the eiFect of inspection upon institu- tions) no inspeption would give any guarantee what- ever as to what happened when the inspector was not present ; and the very fact of inspection would lead to a spirit of opposition on the part of subordinates and servants, and in that way a tendency to con- cealment Avould spring up, which would certainly be injurious to the interests of humanity. Tlien as regards the keeping of a list of the animals, that I believe has been pi'oposed. As regards that again it would be impossible to carry it out with any good effect or result. In the hrst place, because the animals that happen to be there may be intended to be used not for experimental but for anatomical \)\\v- poses ; and then secondly, with respect to some of the animals, as regards frogs for instance, it would be altogether futile to attempt to keep a record of them, those animals I mean that are used in much larger numbers than others, and which are used partly for anatomical purposes and partly for experimental pur- poses ; you could not possibly pretend to keep any- thing like an exact register, and an imperfect register woukl be merely a temptation to carelessness and in- accuracy. So tliat I really do not see that any good could be got by that mode of exercising supervision. 2353. We were told yesterday by some eminent teachers from Guy's Hospital, that everything at Guy's was open to the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals if they liked to come and see, and that there were no secrects of any sort ?—Yes. 2354. I understand you to have the same opinion as was expressed by them on this point ?—Just the same. I may mentioia with reference to my own demon- strations, that whenever demonstrations are done, the time for doing them is written up on the black board ; so that if any gentlemen should wish to see them, they might come. It may be perfectly well known to every- body, the board hangs in the corridor, and it can be known that something is going to be done relating to a certain particular subject. 2355. {Lord 11 inrnarlcigh.) Are the public ad- mitted generally ?—Any i^crson, I believe, can walk into University College ; certainly anybody could go in there without any difficulty. 2356. {Chairma?!.^ May I understand you then to mean that, agreeing in the principle laid down by the gentlemen from Guy's, that perfect publicity should be allowed in all particulars, your objection is to the particular method of securing publicity which has been proposed by some people, namely, an inspector ? —Yes. 2357. {Mr. ITutton.) May I ask if what you stated just now about the notice on the blackboard applies to the laboratory, or only to the large - classes ?—That applies only to the fixed lessons. But I may mention that these lessons, when an experiment is made of the kind I was describing before with ana;sthetics, are not given with the general systematic course. It is a thing which is arranged beforehand, and the number coming to such a lesson would be relatively small. 2358. {Chairman.) But I understood the evidence that we had before to go to this, that there was nothing whatever done within the four walls of the place that was not perfectly open for the public to know, if they wished to know it?—If they wish to know it, certainly. I do not, of course, mean to say that we expect to be intruded upon at work. 2359. {Lord Winmarleigli. to Dr. Foster.) In talking of the private practice of experiments, you say that the private practice has hitherto been small, and in all ])robabilit-y will become still smaller, have you any idea what the amount of private practice is at the present time ?—I think I only know one person who is not connected with a laboratory who is making actual experiments—One person in England, I mean, who is making experiments not in a laboratory. 2360. {Cluiirmnn.) Who is that ?—That is Mr. George Henry Lewes. 2361. {Lord I'Vinniarlcigh.) And you do not think that in any of the great towns of England at the present moment any private experiments are being made by the medical profession or other parties ?— Although there fire not regularly organized laboratories in the large provincial towns they have professors of physiology there, who probably have small labora- tories. 2362. I mean outside of the great medical schools ? —I-do not know of anybody, and I have no reason to think that there are any numbei* of experiments Ix'ing cari'ied on by such persons. 2363. You do not think that even in those medical schools not connected with London tliese experiments are made without the proper superintendence, and a proper restriction upon cruelty ?—I can only say that I have not heard of anything which would lead me to think that such did take place. 2364. ( To Dr. Bur don-Sanderson.) I will ask you a question with reference to this matter. I see that you are the editor of the book before us. Have you any knowledge of the circulation of the book ?—The number of copies that have been sold now I am afraid I cannot give any very exact information about. 2365. But is it a large number ?—At present I do not think it is. I do not think that it is selling now to any great extent. It is entirely in the hands of the publisher, and no second edition has api>eai-od. 2366. You have no control over it?—No control over it. 2367. You are aware, I daresay, that a great deal of the feeling which exists now in the public mind upon the subject has been caused by this book ?—I am very sorry to learn it. I have only learned it very recently. 2368. It has been admitted by yourself and by Dr. Foster that certain mistakes have been made in the publication which might lead to an erroneous opinion on the part of the public. Could you suggest Mr. J. Burdon- Sanderson, M.I)., F.R.S., and Mr. M. Foster, M.D., F.R.S. 23 Oct. 1.875. Q 3 «$