Report of the Royal Commission on the practice of subjecting live animals to experiments for scientific purposes : with minutes and evidence and appendix / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of her Majesty.

Great Britain. Royal Commission on Vivisection (1875)

Date:: 1876

Credit: Report of the Royal Commission on the practice of subjecting live animals to experiments for scientific purposes : with minutes and evidence and appendix / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of her Majesty. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by Royal College of Physicians, London. The original may be consulted at Royal College of Physicians, London.

175/1052 (page 145)

$2740. Will you send in a statement of that ?—I shall be very glad to do so. It could not he strictly accurate, but it will be accurate within limits. 2741. (Mr. Forster.') Giving the number of animals experimented on last year, for instance, and also the sort of experiments ; because some of them may not have been as painful as others ?—Yes. 2742. {Mr. Hutton.) You will divide them into those in which there was no more painful experiment thaH killing them, and those in which the experiments were of a painful kind ?—Yes. 2743. You cannot give us any idea how many Claude Bernard's laboratory would consume in a year, or Ludwig's ?—I cannot tell you really. 2744. You cannot give us a fair guess ?—I do not think I covdd give you a guess at all. 27'15. {Lord Winmarleir/h.) Was last year what Mr. Hutton calls a very active year, or more than usually active ?—I should think not particularly so, I do not knoAV that it was more one year than the other. 2746. {Mr. Hutton.) Now did you verify all the experiments in your handbook yourself, or only those iu your own department of it ?—Only those in my own department certainly; and there are many cases in which it is stated distinctly they are not verified. 2747. {Mr. Forster.) But there are several of the experiments in your own chapter which you have not verified, are there not ?—Yes; there are several where that is so stated. 2748. {3Ir. Hutton.) Taking the whole number in the handbook, could you give us an idea of how many of the whole were painful experiments, and how many not so ; how many were either completely under ana3sthesia, or otherwise not painful ?—I cannot give you any idea; I think I could, probably, in my own ]iart of it, because it relates you see to the great functions, and as to these you have, of course, experi- ments of more importance. There are many cases in the other part in Avhicli one would not be able to say whether it was a painful experiment or not. 2749. Of course you were more particularly respon- sible i'or your own part, and you could do that for us for your own part ?—Yes, 1 would do that; I would distinguish between those which could be performed without detriment to the result with anesthetics, and so on. 2750. Now I understand your position to be that all experiments for a sufficient scientific purpose that are performed by an adequate inquirer without un- necessary pain, are right ?—I am glad you have given me an opportunity of answering. My principle about that and all other cases, whatever the purpose may be in Vvhich pain is inflicted is simply this, that the question of right and wrong depends upon the relation between the purpose of the experiment and the pain inflicted, and the care Avhich is taken that the experi- ment shall be tlone in the most efficient manner. If the purpose is a good purpose, and if the experiment is made in the most skilful way in which it can be made, and if due care is taken that no unnecessary suffering shall be inflicted, I think that the whole thing is a right action; I have no hesitation about that. 2751. 1 think that you were present when Sir Kobert Christisou delivered his address in Edin- burgh a few weeks or months ago on the subject of vivisection ?—You mean in proposing a vote of thanks ? I remember the circumstance, 2752. In that address he was shoAving hoAV very far from hard hearted physiologists are, and he said that there was one experiment which he had entered upon for a sufiicient purpose, and from which he had desisted in the middle on account of the agony caused to the animal. You cannot perhaps tell us what that Avas ?—I do not remember what it was: it was an experiment upon some irritant poison I think. 2753. But Avould you call that unnecessary pain or not ? Avould you say that Avas an amiable Aveakness on Sir Robert Christison's part, supposing that the pur- pose Avas sufficient, or that it was a conscientious act Mr. on his part ?—I should prefer not answering that Bwdon- question, Avitli reference to the particular case because Sanderson, I do not remember. ' 2754. I Avas only taking it as raising the question 25 Oct. 1875. with respect to any experiment where you find one inflicting extreme pain ?—I think that a man after devising a method which he beheves to be the best method that can be used for the purpose, and having considered the pain that is likely to be inflicted, should not desist in the middle because that pain is inflicted; I think it Avould be foolish to do so. 2755. {3fr. Forster.) But Avould you not consider that if it Avas an experiment of that exceedingly painful kind, there ought to be the greatest jiossible reason for its rei^etition if it is I'epeated ?—I think I have said so before, that whenever much pain is to b(! ijiflicted the purpose to be accomplished requires to be correspondingly important. 2756. {Mr. Hutton.) But is it not very much a matter of opinion among medical men, and va,rying very much from one to another, Avhat is necessary and Avhat is unnecessary in these matters ? For instance, Professor Rutherford has - stated that he thinks A'arious demonstrational experiments necessary Avhich others have told us they do not think necessary at all. Is not that a thing in Avhich the public Avould have to rely on the opinion of one particular man ?— I think that applies to all kinds of conduct; but Avith respect to the particular instance put before me, I bclieA-'e there is a general agreement among physio- logical teachers in this country that for demonstra- tional pui'poses, it is not desirable to use experiments which are attended with pain. 2757. Thei'e has been a great difference of opinion betAveen yourself and Dr. Swaine Taylor on the subject of poisons. He assured us that it was not necessary even for the sake of shoAving the effect of strychnine to exhibit it on living animals, and that he had desisted from the practice; that he had drawings so jierfect that it was entirely unnecessary; but there I understand you and Dr. Rutherford to differ from him ?—I confess I entirely differ from Dr. Swaine Taylor on that point. 2758. My point is this to bring out that not only you differ from each other, but the foreign physio- logists Avoifld differ very much from jsou, would they not, on that subject ?—I include among those Avhom I have represented as agreeing in opinion, those Avho are actually engaged in research. I only refer to men in that position. I was speaking particularly of teachers of physiology just noAV. 2759. But you see Avhat Ave haA^e to fear is that as the experimental school increases in this country the opinions that are now held abroad may come Avith it; and I suppose that is a reasonable fear, is it not ?—I do not think that it is a reasonable fear. 2760. I will put this as a test question : Would you think that any physiologist who gave that experiment on recurrent sensibility simply to show his class in a more vivid way the action of the nerA'es, was going beyond the bounds of reasonable humanity ?—I am perfectly certain that no physiologist, none of the leading men in Germany for example, would exhibit an experiment of that kind, because ii is an exces- sively difficult experiment, and quite unsuitable lor the purpose of demonstration. 2761. As regards experiments for purposes of demonstration there is likely to be a very general and uniform agreement on the subject in England, as I understand you ?—I think so. 2762. Differing only on smaller points ?—I think so. 2763. But as regards research yon Avould consider that any pain, supposing it Avas sufficiently justified, might be inflicted ?—Y'^es, with the proviso that I made just noAv, that Ave ought to have constantly in view the object of making it as small as possible. 2764. NoAV has it ever occurred to you to see any experiments on inducing rabies in dogs ?—No, I have$