Report of the Royal Commission on the practice of subjecting live animals to experiments for scientific purposes : with minutes and evidence and appendix / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of her Majesty.

  • Great Britain. Royal Commission on Vivisection (1875)
Date:
1876
Catalogue details

Licence: Public Domain Mark

Credit: Report of the Royal Commission on the practice of subjecting live animals to experiments for scientific purposes : with minutes and evidence and appendix / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of her Majesty. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by Royal College of Physicians, London. The original may be consulted at Royal College of Physicians, London.

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    of thcat region of which the artery has been h'gatured. If now you pinch the other leg which is curarised tlie frog will show movement witli tlie uncurarised limb, because the muscles are not paralysed. If then you paralyse that limb where the curari is not acting on the muscles it does not move the limb. That shows that where the muscles have been paralysed also the sensitive nerves have been paralysed, and that where the muscles have not been paralysed the sensitive nerves have not been paralysed. 3761. Is that movement indicative of pain?—Yes; we take it generally that when we pinch the frog and it does not move it does not feel. 3762. Dr. Schiff practises in Florence, does he not ? —Yes. 3763. Is lie a large experimenter in physiology ?— Yes ; from what he has written, and from his researches, 1 may say, perhaps, that he is one of the largest. 3674. Are you aware whether he uses anresthetics ? —I am not. I could not sa}'. Mr. E. Klein, M.I). 28 Oct. 1875. The witness withdrew. ]\Ir. Edavard Albert Schafer, M.R.C.S., called in and examined. 3765. {Chairman.) Ave you assistant professor of physiology in University College r—Yes. 3766. Assistant to Dr. Burdon-Sanderson ?—Assis- tant professor to Dr. Burdon-Sanderson. 3767. Now have you paid considerable attention to the subject which has been referred to us ?—Yes, I think I may say so. 3768. You have seen such experiments of course as have been performed at University College ?—I have seen a good many of them. 3769. Speaking generally, you know what is taking place at University College ?—Yes. 3770. What is the practice there with regard to experiments which are painful in their nature, are anjBsthetics always employed ?—If possible. 3771. And to whatever extent possible, in cases where it is not possible to do it entirely ?—Certainly so. 3772. Do I rightly understand you to say that at University College the treatment of animals is dictated by a sentiment of humanity ?—Most strictly so ; I am quite certain of it. 3773. And that that is the view both of the superior medical gentlemen, those with Avhom you are asso- ciated, and also of the pupils ?—I believe it to be so. 3774. .Is the proportion o£ experimenls that are painful in their nature very large ?—Very few experi- ments on the whole arc done at all. 3775. The principal part of your teaching I sup- pose is upon the dead tissues ?—My own is entirely upon the tissues. 3776. But I mean in the college the experiments are most of them upon the dead tissues, are not they ? —The physiological experiments are not on dead tissues ; so far as the chemistry is concerned they are entirely. 3777. The experiments in the physiological labo- ratory are very much upon the dead tissues ?—They are certainly upon the tissues, but then those are histological for the most part, and appertain to the branch of the physiological department which has for its object the study of the dead tissues. 3778. What is the department in which experiments are carried on upon the living subject ?—That of practical j)hysiology, of which again there are two departments, one in which the professor himself does experiments upon living animals, and shows them to a class; and another department, which is only just springing up, in which advanced students or medical men come to the laboratory and perform experiments on living animals in .conjunction with the professor or myself. 3779. Now are almost all those experiments per- formed under chloroform ?—They are almost all pei- fornied under some anesthetic, either chloroform, or ether, or opium. 3780. Is curari, or wurari, treated as an ana-sthetic in your laboratory ?—No; at the same time we are not fully convinced as to how far it may be an anesthetic. 3781. And therefore while that question is un- settled, you do not treat it as being so ?—Therefore we frequently give opium as well. 3782. Can you tell us what is the whole number of living animals consumed in your laboratory in a year ? —I cannot tell you, but it is very small ; that is, not A including frogs. So far as rabbits and dogs arc con- cerned ; of dogs there are perhaps not half-a-dozen consumed in the year ; of rabbits a greater number, but not very many. But it depends entirely upon what series of experiments are being performed. 3783. Then with regard to frogs, do you consume a large number of frogs ?—Yes. 3784. Are those the English frogs, or frogs im- ported for the purpose —Some of them are English frogs, and some of them of the larger kind. 3785. Is the larger kind preferable for all experi- ments ?—For nearly all experiments. 3786. And why is it |ueferable ?—Because the parts are larger for manipulation. 3787. Not because the animal is of greater endur- ance ?—Certainly not; I do not think it is of greater endurance. 3788. Then are the experiments upon living frogs usually performed with or without anaisthetics ?— Usually without. 3789. Is no measure taken to diminish the pain of the frog ?—The only measure taken is great care in the perfomnance of the experiments; no other measure. 3790. No aiifEsthetic of any sort is used ?—Very seldom indeed. 3791. Is that because you have the opinion that the frog is not so sensitive as the higher animals ?—- That is my opinion. 3792. And that' is the ground upon which the pi-actice rests ?—That is the ground. 3793. Have you received your education in England or abroad ?—In England ; I have studied abroad. 3794. ( Sir J. B. Karslahe.) I understand you to say that sometimes you do administer aniEsthetics to frogs ?—I have seen them administered; I never do it myself. 3795. Are the experiments which you make upon frogs painful in their character ?—They would be if the frog had an amount of sensibility in proportion. 3796. Some of these experiments involve cutting the frog open, do they not, and exposing the lungs, and so forth ?—Certainl}-. 3797. Would the anajsthetic in any way interfere with the experiment in a great number of instances?— We do not know what anaesthetic to apply to frogs ; we do not know that the anajsthetic would not give as much ])ain as the operation itself. 3798. Do you remove the brain of the frog, or partially remove it, before performing the experi- ment r—Yes, that is very often the case; the spinal marrow is cut across. 3799. Is that done in all cases where it can be done without injury to the experiment, or in most cases ?—It is done chiefly in those experiments in which it facilitates the object of the experiment. 3800. Then it is not done from a motive of humanity ?—I think not. 3801. Then may I take it that there area great number of experiments which, supposing a frog to be a sensitive animal, must cause a vast deal of pain, which are not done under chloroform ?—There is no doubt al5ont it. 3802. And there is no precaution taken to diminish pain, if it sutlers pain ?—1 think I may say no special pi'ecaution. a 3 Mr. E. A. ScJulfer, M.U.C.S.