Report of the Royal Commission on the practice of subjecting live animals to experiments for scientific purposes : with minutes and evidence and appendix / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of her Majesty.

Great Britain. Royal Commission on Vivisection (1875)

Date:: 1876

Credit: Report of the Royal Commission on the practice of subjecting live animals to experiments for scientific purposes : with minutes and evidence and appendix / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of her Majesty. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by Royal College of Physicians, London. The original may be consulted at Royal College of Physicians, London.

58/1052 (page 28)

$jifr. case of exhibiting the phenomena produced by W. Sharpey, certain poisons. M.D., LL.D., 542. {3Ir. Hutton.') That you would justify for the F.R.S. gj^],g making the pupils apt in the study of disease ? -— ^ Yes. ' ' 543. When you said that this method is purely for scientific ends, I understood you, to put it very lai-gely, that you did not justifiy this simply for the purpose of opening up inquiries with a prospect of benefit to man, but for purely scientific ends. In that sense surely it is the fact, is it not, as Mr. Ray Lankester asserted not long ago, that the number of experiments of this kind which can be performed, and ought to be performed, will increase in almost geometrical progression as the science enlarges ?—I cannot venture to predict how that may be, because the progress of science supersedes so many experiments. 544. But it suggests many more, does it not ?—It may lead to fresh experiments, but it supersedes many. The progress of science has been through the discovery of anaesthetics the means of avoiding many painful experiments formerly necessary. 545. Of course in every experimental science every new light must suggest a vast number of new deviations of inquiry; and it is not the less so because the modus operandi is painful; it will be just the same here as in any other experimental science, will it not, that eveiy new discovery will suggest a vast number of new methods of inquiry ?—Of course every new discovery widens the prospect, and brings us into wider contact with the unknown. 546. Do you not think that that is rather an alarming prospect for this country, that the number of painful experiments are likely to multiply in geometrical pi'ogression as Mr. Lankester says ?— Geometrical progression is a very strong expression. New directions may open up in which exjieriments are performed. New lines of inquiry, for instance, for which experiments may be needful; but then, as said before, the progress of science tends to supersede experiments previously per.foxmed. Moreover, I ap- prehend that all such experiments, however extensively they are performed, would be under the direction of some skilled and competent person. 547. That we are assuming; still what you look to is that the prospect of an indefinitely larger number of painful experiments will open upon us as science is pursued?—I do not see any real prospect of that indefinite number of painful experiments. 548. Now thei-e is a class of experiments which seems to be rather a new one, the experiment on tissue, and to which the editors of this handbook seem to attach great value. Those experiments they seem to find necessary to conduct on the living animal; and surely that is a new class of experiments ? —Which do you refer to? 549. Such an experiment as causing inflammation in the cornea of a fi'og's eye, and then removing that as a tissue for further dealings with ?—A single operation of that kind on a frog's eye would probably serve two or three dozen pupils for the puipose of microscopic examination ; and I do not know that it is of a very painful character. Besides, that expeii- ment might be made by destroying the brain of the frog. 550. It does not appear to be so made ?—It might be done. 551. Wovdd not that interfere with the result in any degree ?—No ; I do not think it would. 552'. Then you were referring to Ludwig's method of recording the pressure of the blood. Now I am told that Ludwig has an engine at Avork to secure artificial respiration, which is at work day and night, or at least to a very great extent; the scale of the operations is so large ?—I have seen the apparatus; there is a similar one at University College. It is simply a gas engine. 553. It is for the purpose of keeping up artificial respii-ation in a considerable number of animals ; it would not be necessary for a few ?—But these animals may be perfectly well rendered insensible; and besides it is no great matter as to whether you use an engine for the purpose or whether you use the hand. 554. Of course not; but it is simply as a test of the number of experiments requiring to be made tliat I speak of it; you would I'lot have an engine for a small number ?—The engine is used for a variety of other purposes, for driving lathes, for cutting bones, and the like of that. 555. Still it is desirable for the purpose of keeping up artificial respiration ?—I have seen it, and I know that they do put it to that use. 556. Is it not true that with regard to those experi- ments for recording arterial circulation chloroform interferes so much with the action of the heart that it cannot be used ?—I do not think chloroform does so much as chloral. Besides opium may be used. 557. I am told that urari is used as the great agent in these experiments, simply because it does not interfere to the same extent with the arterial pressure; and if so all those experiments, which are sometimes very prolonged (in this book, for instance, there is one of that kind which it is said may be kept up for many hours), would be experiments of a very painful charac- ter ?—Well, if there was no amesthetic they would of course, 558. You were speaking of the scientific end being the true end. I am not wishing to put you into a dilemma at all; but how would you restrict it so that it should not be extended to man. I am not speaking of ordinary men who have their freedom, l)ut say prisoners Avho are liable to a certain amount of suffering for their crimes. Surely if the scientific end is the great end, those experiments would be justfiable on human beings ?—But it is not necessary to use human beings. 559. It would be very much more instructive, would it not, than to make them on animals ?—I do not know that. 560. You would admit that there are a great many functions in the human being Avhich are very difiei'ent from those in animals ?—Of course the great point about human beings is that they could tell you their feelings. But really that speculation never entei'ed into my head; that has been done we are told. 561. I was referring to your very strong way of putting it; you said that physiology is not a reaping machine but a plough ; that Ave must not look to the immediate end but to the great methods that it opens up to us. Now with respect to that, surely it is quite true that that method as applied to human beings would be infinitely more poAverful than as applied to animals ?—I do not think we have any right to apply it to human beings, unless they are willing. 562. Ev^en if they had incurred the. penalties of the law, do you think Ave cannot apply it to them ? —No, because the penalty of the laAv may be death, but not the pain that would be incurred previously ; and in other cases Avhere the penalty of the law was not death there might be a danger of it. 563. Might you not submit those who had incurred minor penalties to experiments not endangering life, and those who had incurred the greater penalty to the more dangerous exj^ei'iments ?—I never thought of that; if I mistake not the first experiments of innoculation of the small-pox Avere made on criminals. 564. Is not that a precedent that might be repeated Avith great advantage to science ?—I haA^e not thought out that question. 565. {Chairman.') You are not prepared to re- commend it to the Crown and Parliament ?—Cer- tainly not. 566. {Mr. Hutton.') But you Avould admit, that tlie way in Avhich you put it, that the scientific object is the great object, would lead to that logically ?—I do not think it is very likely to lead to it actually. 567. I do not mean practically, but that it Avould suggest that?—It is alleged that in antiquity they did perform dissections upon living men. It is said that Herophilus, of Alexandria did, and he Avas denounce<l by Tertullian, one of the fathers of the church, as$