Volume 1
National Health Insurance. : Report [and Appendices Vols 1-4] of the Departmental Committee on Sickness Benefit Claims under the National Insurance Act.
- Great Britain. National Health Insurance Joint Committee.
- Date:
- 1914
Licence: Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International (CC BY-NC 4.0)
Credit: National Health Insurance. : Report [and Appendices Vols 1-4] of the Departmental Committee on Sickness Benefit Claims under the National Insurance Act. Source: Wellcome Collection.
Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.
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![18 December 1913.] Mr. 0. W. Woodcock. [Continued. 15.253. And you have never allowed them to engage in any work whilst on the funds ?—No. 15.254. They have always been liable to be examined by an independent doctor ?—At the option of the committee by the rule. 15.255. How did you appoint your medical men under the old regime ?—The committee appointed them. When we had a vacancy we used to get our men in the district to say what doctor they would like. We approached the doctors, or the members did, and we ascertained whether the doctors were agreeable, and then we made a choice. It frequently happened in those days that we had no need to do that, because we had two, three, four, five, mdeven cix applications for the jobs. 15.256. You paid more when it was a distance from the medical man's residence ?—Yes. 15.257. You had fairly complete control over your medical man ?—Yes, but it was a friendly control. 15.258. They were practically responsible to you for the work, and, although you had a large army of sick visitors, and a very strong rule as to what they should do and should not do, did you find it necessary a few years ago to appoint an inspector in addition ?— We had those inspectors a few years ago. 15.259. About four or five years ago?—We had one and we appointed another one. 15.260. You have found that they have paid then- way ?—Yes, they have paid us very well. 15.261. Under the old condition of things, when the doctor was directly responsible to yourself, you found it necessary to have this strict supervision ?— Yes, but it was not so strict as we have got it now. We had it as strict as we could, but the doctors could not be troubled to give the names at surgery times, and when we did get them, it was probably too late to catch the individual malingerer, whereas now the sick visitor has the names of sick members the day they declare on the funds. 15.262. It would not always be possible to sift out who were your men and who were not ?—No. 15.263. In days gone by, you had trouble with malingerers ?—There always has been, and always will be. 15.264. Under your old system, and I dare say under your present system, your stationmasters helped you to keep an eye on suspected persons ?—Yes, if they suspected any man, they would drop me a line. 15.265. They would also see the doctor in a friendly way ?—And I would go myself personally. 15.266. Did the members largely employ their own doctors ?—Yes, a great number. 15.267. In a small station where you had only one doctor, do those men still largely go to that doctor on the panel ?—Oh, yes, the majority. 15.268. That brings us to one of the cases you mentioned where the doctor said that he had forgotten to see the member afterwards ?—He was one of our doctors, and an old friend of mine. 15.269. In all probability he would know this man perfectly well, and would know his ailments ?—Yes, he said that he did. 15.270. You do not suggest for a moment that the doctor wished to aid a fraud on your society ?—I do not think that he did. I think that the man is a fraud, and that the doctor was busy. 15.271. (Chairman.) With regard to the voluntary side, I think that we have got it rather mixed up. Before the Insurance Act was passed there was a Friendly Society to which eveiybody on the Midland staff had to belong ?—Not everybody, certain grades. 15.272. And for them it was compulsory ?—Quite. 15.273. That society was in difficulties ?—It had a deficiency. 15.274. A large deficiency?—I will say a deficiency, not as large as some. 15.275. That society to all intents and purposes has now ceased to exist, has it not ?—Yes, as a society. 15.276. It does not collect any more contributions ? —That is so. 15.277. All the money left to it has been put into a fund ?—Yes, and is being distributed in the shape of benefits. 15.278. To the people who before the passing of the Act were members ?—Yes. 15.279. And that is the only sense in which there is a voluntary side at all, is it not ?—Yes. 15.280. The directors, as a matter of fact, supple- mented the moneys that came out of that fund because, when they saw the deficiency, they realised what hard luck it would be on the old men if they did not ?— From time to time as we had a deficiency, they in- creased their capitation grant. I will put it that way. 15.281. That is in the past, but so far as the present is concerned, all that has been saved has, as it were, been put into a box, and is being paid out to the people who have an interest in it ?—Yes. 15.282. And that is the only sense in which there is a voluntary side ?—That is so. It is fizzling out. 15,2S3. Membership of this existing society is not compulsory ?—Not on account of the company, but it is compulsion on the part of the State. 15.284. They have to belong to some society, but not necessarily to this society ?—That is so. 15.285. You are the secretary ?—Yes. 15.286. Are you the servant of the company ?—No, of the committee. 15.287. Are you paid by the company ?—No, the committee. 15.288. Do you take orders from the company ?— No. 15.289. In rule 18 (15) it says, A member shall not be entitled to any sickness or disablement benefit in respect of any sickness or accident occa- sioned by fighting (except in self-defence), intoxica- tion, debauchery, or intemperance of any kind ?— It is as you have read it, I believe. 15,290-2. Football is not intoxication, nor de- bauchery, nor ordinarily intemperance ?—No. 15.293. I do not know how they play football in the north of England nowadays, but is it fighting?—It is, if you play on Shrove Tuesday at Ashbourne. I ha ve had some. 15.294. Look at rule 26 (9) of the rules of your society. That says : The managing committee may, if they think fit, at any time by resolution discharge any elected member of the committee from his office, if he shall be guilty of any offence in respect of which a fine or penalty may be imposed by these rules, or if, in the opinion of the managing com- mittee, he has been guilty of misconduct as an officer of the society, or grossly neglected his duties as such, or has become incapacitated by ill-health or otherwise from attending from such duties. You are not a lawyer, are you ?—No, sir. 15.295. Do you not think that before you turned anybody off your committee, you would have to make a definite allegation of misconduct, and that unless you could prove it was misconduct by an officer of the society, yo^^ would be impotent to turn the man off ?—I should think so. 15.296. You have not got it in your power to turn a man off the committee simply because you dislike him ?—I do not think that we have. 15.297. Have you power to turn him off for any- thing he does otherwise than as an officer of the society?—I am not quite sure about this. I know that it would never be exercised if we had the power. 15.298. (Mr. Davies.) Not even if he troubled the company in a strike ?—Oh, no, it is not a question of the company; it is managed by the men. 15.299. (Chairman.) You told us that you had a Nottingham man, who had been certified by the doctor without the doctor seeing him. I do not think that you subsequently produced that case to us. I should be very glad to hear something more about it, if you have got it there. Tell us the circumstances and what you have done?—We had a complaint, anonymously really, that this man was doing lace work, assisting his wife. I sent over, and this is what our inspector reported: . I saw the above-named man to- ' day, and he agreed to sign off, and resume duty to-morrow. He looked well, and there appeared to be nothing the matter with him. Although he had been on the fund since November 24th, he had never](https://iiif.wellcomecollection.org/image/b21361125_001_0560.jp2/full/800%2C/0/default.jpg)
