Schools : eighth report from the Select Committee on Estimates together with the Minutes of Evidence taken before Sub-Committee E and Appendices, Session 1952-1953.

  • Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons. Select Committee on Estimates
Date:
1953
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Licence: Public Domain Mark

Credit: Schools : eighth report from the Select Committee on Estimates together with the Minutes of Evidence taken before Sub-Committee E and Appendices, Session 1952-1953. Source: Wellcome Collection.

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    10 December, 1952.] [Continued. 182. In Circular 245, there is this para- graph, number 10: ‘“‘ Futhermore, where new building is essential to meet the minimum needs specified above, it may be necessary to subordinate long-term con- siderations, such as the Development Plan proposals for the area, to the immediate need to reduce investment ’?—-May I again explain there are two kinds of transport. Circular 242 is concerned with trying to reduce the amount spent on transport in rural areas by making children walk who would otherwise: have been riding in certain marginal cases. That is one set of circum- stances. Then there is a quite different set of circumstances which you have now in mind, namely, transport which is under- taken because of housing development having outstepped school development. I do not know how that may work out. I quite agree it is not under control as a matter of policy. It is forced on you if your school building is falling behind. The fact that that may happen does not in any sense whatever prevent us from tackling the rural transport problem. Miss Ward. 183. Those are all the taxis and things? —It is chiefly buses. The taxis get in the newspaper, but the main part of it is buses. 184. Every time transport charges go up the monies spent by the education authori- ties are bound to go up too?—Yes; we do not overlook the cost of petrol and so on. 185. Have all the local authorities who are actually providing children who under the Act should not have been provided with transport all been stopped now?—I should not like to say necessarily they have all been stopped. As far as any case comes to our notice we have dealt with those since the issue of this Circular, and have put the policy in front of them. 186. What does happen if local authorities continue to defy the law?—lIt is not the law. The law prescribes certain things which must be done. What they may do is within their discretion, but it is for the Minister to say what he will pay grants on. What we are concerned with is not the question of breaking the law, but the Minis- ter will say certain expenditure will not attract the grant. 187. Has he taken any action in regard to any local authorities on those lines?— Yes. Chairman. 188. In this Circular there is the very categorical statement, that “it will not be possible to build schools to serve new hous- ing development where, by the use of trans- port or by the adjustment of catchment areas, the children from the new houses can for the time being be accommodated in existing schools.” I would like to know what is going to be the cost of the trans- port as a result of this. Would it be possible to give the Sub-Committee a memorandum on that?—We can give you a memorandum*, but I do not think it will contain figures, because I should think it is quite impossible. Mr. James Johnson. 189. Would Mr. Flemming care to com- ment on the position of denominational schools, particularly in Lancashire, where you have had Merseyside people blitzed, and so on, and many cases where you cannot build a new Catholic school, where you may have to convey large numbers of Catholic children over a large area? Is it possible to take one area like Lancashire and perhaps give some estimate?—I do not see how we can isolate all the factors that come into it. What the Chairman is after is the relationship of building and transport, and that is the most one can do, to give some very narrow illustrations, not over a whole area but on a quite big case which may have happened. Would it help if I tried to give an illustration of the order of costs of a case which has happened where the completion of the school has been delayed and we could show that carry- ing so many children has cost so much money? What I shall not be able to do will be to give any estimate of the extent to which by running things fine on the building programme we are increasing the risk of that happening in the future. Mr. T. W. Jones. 190. I suppose transport costs have gone up in rural areas due to having to put a secondary modern school where none ex- isted?—As part of the provision of secondary education, yes. Miss Ward. 191. Could we have a memorandum on the pilot schemes?—(Mr. Nenk.) We have put very full details of the first of those, though it is not the first to be completed, in Building Bulletin No. 8. We have sent you copies. Chairman. 192. Not enough for distribution?—You would like enough copies of Bulletin No. 8 for distribution? 193. Yes, please?—(Mr. Flemming.) We will let you have the information about different schools and a memorandum on transport on the lines which I was dis- cussing just now. 194. Thank you very much indeed for your patience in listening to our questions? —Thank you for the stimulating questions. * Annex 2, 20093