Schools : eighth report from the Select Committee on Estimates together with the Minutes of Evidence taken before Sub-Committee E and Appendices, Session 1952-1953.

  • Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons. Select Committee on Estimates
Date:
1953
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Licence: Public Domain Mark

Credit: Schools : eighth report from the Select Committee on Estimates together with the Minutes of Evidence taken before Sub-Committee E and Appendices, Session 1952-1953. Source: Wellcome Collection.

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    11 February, 1953.] [Continued. my committee had said “ We are not going to use this school any longer” there is nothing in the building programme provi- sions which would have enabled us to re- place that school. (Dr. Alexander.) In a word the authority had to force the issue by saying this school cannot be used. (Mr. Hirst.) The school forced its own issue, put it that way. 400. You would say those _ schools originally placed on the black list were schools which were unfit to be used accord- ing to standards then, but whilst some of them may have been put in better order since then and could be removed from the list, on the whole you would consider there are many more?—(Dr. Alexander.) ‘There are many more. 401. Have you any idea of the number? —Nobody has that information ,as far as ] know. I do not think the Ministry have. The situation we want to stress here is that at the end of the war something like one million school places had been des- troyed or damaged. Also many other schools had been regarded as _ unsatisfac- tory for substantial periods of time before that. We put it as an assumption made. In fairness we are bound to say, and we try to say, that the issue was probably forced on the Ministry in terms of avail- able money and manpower. I am not suggesting the Ministry said, “‘ These are fine ; these schools are all excellent and adequate.” I would not suggest that; but it has the effect of saying that “these schools, many of them very bad, very many of them quite below the regulations of the Minister, must continue to be used, and nothing can be done to improve them be- cause all the money we have got available must be used for other purposes for at least ten years.” 402. That is what I am leading up to be- cause the first assumption, which you say is an assumption of the Ministry with which you disagree, is that these old schools which are unsatisfactory are still to be used, and then it is said that nothing can be done for a period of ten years or more to bring that accommodation up to standards which more nearly approximate to the regulations of the Minister. Is it not true that some millions of pounds have been spent on these schools?—On a few of what are called minor projects. It is true that it is competent for an authority to undertake minor projects in improving all these schools, but they are barred by the facts, the facts being that the minor projects have to be used for providing additional accommodation because of the demands. In other words, the actual money devoted to the improvement of existing buildings is almost negligible, because it has to be used for providing additional class rooms. 403. Would it be more economic if more money was spent on these old schools, do you think, in present circumstances?—It is very difficult to say. You would have to examine particular cases. A great many buildings will, in my view, eventually have to be scrapped altogether, and to spend money on buildings you propose to scrap is not wise; obviously it can be wasteful. In other cases, by improving buildings they could in fact continue to be used for a substantial period of time. Now the issue is that, because of the very severe limitations, the present money available has really got to be limited to two purposes, and those are quite specifically stated by the Minister—the birth rate and new housing estates. There is nothing for any other purpose. Therefore you just have not got the means to improve. There have been minor works. Some dry lavatories have been taken out and decent lavatories put in, and so on. Minor projects of that kind have been going on. (Mr. Hirst.) If your electric wiring is condemned you have got to replace it. (Dr. Alexander.) That kind of thing must be done, but the total money devoted to bringing schools existing at the end of the war up to regulation standards must be quite small, 404. You say, “The second assumption relates to the relationship between the pro- vision of new school places and the number of children who will require to be accommo- dated in them.” You give figures, and you say it has “resulted, we believe, in the establishment of the fact that new school places were required for 1,150,000 children by the end of 1953”. You also say this: ‘“‘ Administrative realism . . .’— perhaps you will explain to us what that means—‘ demands that for such a number of children the number of school places must be at least 100,000 more”. Why?— It is a very simple proposition. The figure of 1,150,000 is the official figure accepted by the Minister as being the number of additional children for whom there are no school places and who must be provided with school places. 405. By the end of 1953?—That figure has been accepted, and that was the reason why I quoted it. Now these places have to be provided in 146 authorities, some of them widespread geographically. The only way you could fit 1,150,000 children into them is if in fact you could build a school for 357 children here, a school for 469 children there and so on, which you cannot do. Schools must be built in groups of forty. A class is forty. That is the basis of building. You must build a school for, for example, 240 children or 320 children. In fact there are going to be in a school of 320 inevitably certain classes where the number is not forty. It may be a bit more or it may be a bit less. The administra- tive experience is that you never are closer