Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix.

  • Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Aged Poor
Date:
1899
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Licence: Public Domain Mark

Credit: Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

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    8 June 1899.] Mr. J. Bickehsteth. [Continued. Lord Edrnond Fitzmaurice—comtimied. have said, is a very g*ood illiistratioii aud a very strong one. 790. Tlie wliole of your answers have been directed, I tliink, to proposals to pay pensions to persons outside any public institution ?—Yes. 791. You have not at all had in your mind, nor do you desire to direct your evidence to, the question of public admission of old age pen- sioners to an institution ?—No. Mr. Leckxj. 792. I think the net result of your evidence is that not only that county councillors absolutely object to administer the pension scheme, but that it would be impossible for them to do so unless there were quite an exceptional amount of public spirit and self-sacrifice among the people. I think you said it would strain the self-sacrifice of the members of the council to the utmost possible limit; in fact, they would probably have to attend between 40 and 50 times a. year to do it ?—Yes. 793. Do not you think that that utterly puts , an end to any scheme which would apply the same administration to all counties—counties such as Yorkshire and Lancashire, and counties such as Donegal and Mayo ?—You may put it in that way. Mr. Samtiel Hoare. 794. I took a different view from my honour- able friend. I thought you opened your evidence by saying that the county council would not be unwilling to undertake responsibility if it was placed upon them, although you have explained the diificulties there would be. That was your first answer I heard?—I said that if responsi- bilities are forced upon us we will cheerfully undertake them. I did not intend to say more than that. 795. You suggested that it would be necessary that the county council should appoint a com- mittee who should undertake this business and should possibly meet each division of your county four times a year. Have you got a Sea Fisheries Committee in Yorkshire?—Yes. It extends over a large extent of coast—a large area. 796. And that committee is appointed defi- nitely and distinctly for one object?—Yes. 797. And that committee is not confined to members of the county council ?—No. 798. For that special business you add certain members?—We do not add them. The Board of Trade add representatives of the fishing industry. 799. Have you ever considered whether if the county council appoint a Committee to under- take the pensions that it could be formed some- what on thelines of the Sea Fishery District Com- mittee?—The Sea Fishery District Committee was appointed on the application of the county councils. Before the committee was appointed the county councils met and expressed their desire to the Board of Trade that a. district should be formed. I think the Board of Trade sanctions the formation of a district and appoints thefishery members of the committee. The coun- cils voluntarily entered into an agreement; and it would be hardly fair to compare the two, because there has been a good deal of excitement in Mr. Samuel Hoare—continued. Yorkshire lately about the expense of the Fishery Committee, and the call on one of the counties has amounted to as much as 200/. on a rateable value of 2,000,000/. 800. I only meant would it not be possible to form a committee somewhat on the same system with certain members of the county council on it, and certain members put on it for that special business ?—Of course it would be possible to do so. But the objections which I have taken on behalf of the county councils would apply to a committee appointed by the county councils and the Local Government Board, or whatever the authority might be, jointly. It would be a very great strain upon them. I doubt whether you could find a committee in the East Riding of Yorkshire of 15 gentlemen who are fit and will- ing to iserve on the ,commilttee who are not, already on the county council. We use upi all our piublic-spirited men. 801. Of course one can fully understand that difiiculty, but do you think that under any scheme on which the county council committee have to take any part, they can undertake any part except in the nature of an appeal court from some other body. I gather from your evidence, I may be right or wrong, that the labour that would be imposed upon the county council, if they really were to take up this pen- sion question from the commencement, would be heavier than we should have any right to expect that they could undertake ?—Yes ; but I do not know whether I could say that we should like to see it entrusted to parish councils, with ourselves as the court of appeal; because I have tried to point out that to act as a court of appeal from such very subordinate authorities as that, would involve all the machinery and all the trouble that you would take to carry out the work from the beginning. 802. Woiild not a good deal of the work be lessened if the pensioner in applying for his pen- sion first made an affidavit before the magistrate that he was qualified for a pension, and that that affidavit that he is qualified for a pension should, without taking any further evidence, be handed to the committee who were entrusted with the consideration of the subject?—It de- pends entirely upon what kind of responsibility you gave the committee. 803. I beg your pardon; it is not with refer- ence to responsibility. What I mean is this: Supposing there are certain points that a man or a, woman has to swear to; such as that their age is 65', and so on; would not the ground be very much cleared if, in the first instance, that application was made, not to guardians or to jjeople of that character, but direct to the magis- trates, and that the man or woman made an affidavit that they were qualified for a pension. Of course it would be perjury if any statement in that affidavit was incorrect ?—That would, sa far as it went, be useful. 804. Would it not clear the ground very much indeed ?—It might be sufficient if the magistrate before whom the declaration was made were tO' cross-examine the applicant, and the result of that was the judicial seal upon the facts. 805. Even if the magistrate did not cross- examine (because if he cross-examined him that wouldl
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