Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix.

Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Aged Poor

Date:: 1899

Credit: Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

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$8 June 1899.] Mr. J. S. Davy. \Continued. Chairman—conitinued. franchise—he is disqiialified. Wheithei' he is disqualified or not in the case of the public franchise depends upon the courts, who have to decide whether the oifence for which he is con- victed is one that is dishonourable or not. 911. That is decided by the courts?—That is ultimately decided by the couri;; the registration court., as we should say. 912. Tender those circumstances he becomes disentitled to relief?—Yes. 91-^. Then another disqualification is, that he has wasted his means?—Yes. 914. Is that again decided upon by the courts or by the communal authority?—That is de- cided by the commimal authority. 915. And the question of whether he has received or has not received poor relief is, of course, a matter of fact on which they have to get evidence and to decide also ?—Quite so. 916. When you state that he is disciualified by the receipt of poor relief, does that mean the receipt of relief at any tiane or within a certain number of years ?—He must not have received lelief for 10 years previous to the application. That is to say, if he is 60 years of age, he must not have received relief since he was 50. 917. There is no proof or test of thrift required to qualify for a pension ?—None whatever. 918. Is sobriety not a condition ?—No. Some people say there ought to be tests of thrift and sobriety. I am talking now not of my own opinion, I am talking of the opinions expressed to me by the Danes engaged in the adminis- tration of the Act. 919. Did j^ou ever hear whether there were known cases where people guilty of insobriety continued to retain their pensions ?—Not speci- fically ; but it was evidently rather a sore point with some of the administrators. 920. There are sometimes complaints made upon that ground ?—Yes. 921. Can the piensions when once given be stopped or withdra■R^l ?—Yes. The pensions can be stopped or withdrawn under certain specified conditions, which are these. Should the pensioner be guilty of any action, which according to Sec- tion 2 (that is the disqualification section) would exclude him from admission to the old age relief, or should he squander what is given to him for his suppoi-t, the relief ceases; or if the recipient marries and afterwards requires a larger measure of support than what was given to him when he took a wife. So that the pensioner has to be imder supervision if the pension committee do their duty. But, as a matter of fact, I do not tliiuk pensions are very often taken away. I think that the pension is usually considered to be a permanent provision, and that is one of the reasons why it is more acceptable than the ordi- nary poor law relief. 922. Can you tell us what the usual amount of the pension is?—I can give yoii that in great detail. 923. Is the amount of the pension fixed by law?—The amount is not fixed by law. It is entirely at the discretion of the communal authorities; and it is quite evident from the figures that there is a very large diversity in administration as to the amount of pension given in different parts of the country. C hair man—c onti u ued. 924. On what principle is the amount fixed by the authorities who have the discretion?— The amount is fixed apparently on precisely the same gro'unds as the amount of outdoor relief g'iven in this country is fixed. That is to say, the pension given is apparently just what would supplement the man's earnings or means so as to enable him to live. 925. That is to say, as a. rule then the pension which is given would not be enough to support the recipient unless he had additional means ?— So far as I can iudge from the returns it would not be too much to say that the pension is never enough to support the pensioner unless he had additional means. Mr. Lloyd-George. 926. Is the amount fixed by the communal authority for all cases, or does the commune decide in each individual case the amount that should be given?—The commune is under no obligation to have a scale; but in Copenhagen, where the pension and the poor law is adminis- tered with very great care, they have a scale for their own guidance. Chairman. 927. I think what Mr. Lloyd-George wanted to ask and what is interesting to learn is this: Do they give the same amount to all individuals or do they arbitrarily fix in each case how much or how little an applicant should have ?—The two communes with which I am specially acquainted fix the amount in each ease accord- ing to their discretion, and all the man's earn- ings and means are taken into consideration, and the amount of pension given to him is a supplementation of those means. 928. In giving any pension then, account is taken as a rule, I suppose, of any other receipts or any other income that the applicant may have?—Yes, that is so. 929. Exactly, as you say, as outdoor relief is given here now ?—I have here a paper on this point which is written in rather delightful English by a. man who knows ; and he says tliis about it: This is the weak point of the pension scheme, that the applicant is obliged to be entirely without means. Peopile who have saved small sums by perhaps denying themselves nearly everything, are advised to spend what they have saved and first get entn-eiy without means so that they may be entitled to get a pension. In that way a premium is put on unforeseenness and neglect. Why should a person save anything for his old age when it is only a, hindrance for him to get a pension? That is what one gentleman who knows wrote to me about it. 930. You said just now, I think, that the amount of the pensions given was never enough to maintain the applicant without some supple- mentai-y means; what happens in the case of those applicants who have no supplementary means whatever of their own; are they sent to workhouses?—I should think they would be those cases who are admitted into the homes for pensioners ; the communal authoritj'^ having the right to give pensions either in a home or out- side. At the present moment in Copenhagen they are building a wing to the old age work- house$