Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix.

  • Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Aged Poor
Date:
1899
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Licence: Public Domain Mark

Credit: Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

    107/466 page 57
    8 June 1899.] Mr. J. S. Davy. ICoittmued. Cha irman—conltiiiued. house to contain 400 pensioners. T'lie adminis- iration of that wing- will be a part of the work- house management. 931. I think you said that in Ccpenhagen the amount of the pension was settled on a different principle, and that there they had a scale ?—It is the same principle, but they probably secure greater xmiformity of administration by having a fixed scale. I am informed that there, by means of the investig-ating officers, and the ques- tions (of which I have a copy here) which are administered to the applicant, they find out the whole means of the appilicant. They then take any means which obviously depend upon thrift, as, for instance, allowances from a benefit society, at one-half. They take pensions and legacies at three-quarters, and they take all other means in full, except that if a man has a small sum, a pound or two' in his stocking, they do not take any notice of it at all. They let him have it. 932. Then it is the fact that in Copenhagen the woi'khouses are managed by a totally dif- ferent authority ^—jVo. 933. The authority in the case of Copenhagen is an authority on behalf of the central govern- ment?—He is nominated by the municipality, but he is confirmed by the central government. 934. He is elected by the municipality ?-—He is nomiuat;ed, so to speak, by the municipality. He is confirmed by the central government, and he is in very close touch, apparently, with the Minister of the Interior. 935. But at all events the management, both for pensions and for poor relief, in Copenhagen is qviite different from what it is in other districts of the country ?—Yes. Mr. Hedderwich. 936. May I ask, upon that point, whether the scale has anything to do with the cost of living in Copenhagen?—The scale has nothing to do with it; but the sums paid in Copenhagen ai-e considerably greater than the sums paid in the country, as you may expect. For instance, the number of single men getting over 4.s. BfZ. a week in Copenhagen is 7'5' of the whole, whereas in the country districts it is only 23 of the whole. 937. I asked you a question just now to which I do not think we had an answer. Can you give us the average amount of the pensions which are given by tlie communal authorities? —Shall I give you tliem for the whole country ? 938. What I want to know is, as nearly as you can tell us, what the pension comes to; bow much it is that the recipient gets, on the average, from the communal authorities?—Tbe average pension was, in 1896, in the country, 2s. a week. 939. What is it in Copenhagen ?—In Copen- hagen it is 3s. 4J(7. In the provincial towns it is 2s. 8(/.; and in the market towns, which is the largest figure, 3s. Id.; the fact being that in the market towns is the wealthy suburb of Copen- hagen called Frederiksberg, where they give more. These svims are for heads O'f families. For single persons the amounts were, for the country districts, Is. Ad. a week; for Copen- bagen, 2s. Sd.; for the provincial towns, 2s.; and for the market toM^ns. 3s. 940. How do j^ou aeeount for the very different Mr. Hedderwick—^continued. scale upon which these pensions are given ? Is it because the authorities are able to afford more, or because the cost of living in one case is greater than it is in the other?—I attribute it to two reasons. One is that the needs of a person living in a town are greater than the needs of persons living in the country, and, therefore, he gets more pension. I also attri- bute it to the fact that in all probability in tbe country districts, where the governing bodies are peasant proprietors, you most likely have gi-eater* economy in the administration of the local funds. 941. They are more anxious, I suppose, to keep the rates oft the land ?—I maj' say, as an illustration of that point, which seems to be rather the crucial point of the whole investiga- tion, that in the market towns no less than 50 per cent, of the pensioners get over 4s. (id. a week—that is, heads of families. Tbat includes Frederiksberg, the rich suburb I spoke of. 942. The average in the market towns, I think you said, was 3s. Id. ?—Yes, in ordinaiy market towns. 943. But they get in many cases as much as 4s. ^d. ?—Yes. Whereas in the country districts only 5-2 percent, get as much as that. 944. From what sources are these pensions paid?—Local funds, locally raised. 945. Are they paid entirely out of local funds ? —Half of them. Half the pensions are paid by the State, but the State contribution is limited to Kr. 2i million in the year (111,000/.). 94(). Does the fact of the State contributing one-half of the pensions induce the communal authority to give pensions as freely as they can, and so relieve the cost of the local rates ?—That would 'prima facie seem to be the probable result, that a certain number of the poor law cases would be transferred to the pension list. Of course it does not follow that because they have been in the receipt of poor law relief they would therefore be disqualified from the pension ; they might be persons whom the Danish legis- lature contemplated as being pensionable. But certainly the drop in poor law relief since the passing of the pension Act has been quite remark- able. Poor law expenditure had risen enor- mously fast in Denmark upi to apparently the late 80's. Then in 1890 there was somewhat of a check, but not very much. 947. It is the fact, I think, that the result has of late followed upon the piayment by the State of one-half the pensions that the cost of poor law relief has very considerably decreased, and the amount expended on pensions has consider- ably increased ?—That is so. 948. I think you said iust now that under the Act of 1881 the amount to be given by the Sitate was limited to a certain sum ?—Yes. 949. Has that sum been exceeded ?—It has been already exceeded by 20 per cent., and there is another further increase anticipated. 950. Has the decrease in pioor i-elief been less than the increase in expense of pensions ?—No ; the increase in poor relief since 1890 has been about 70,000/.; that is to say, from a total expen- diture of 438,000/. it has fallen to 377,000/. 951. What has been the increase in pensions? —^The total expenditure in pensions in the same year
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