Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix.

Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Aged Poor

Date:: 1899

Credit: Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

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$8 June 1899.] Mr. J. S. Davy. [Continued. Mr. Heddenoiclc—^coatiiiued. year, 189(3, amouuted to 226,000/., of which the State paid half; so that from the point of view of the comnmnal authorities they have to pay 113,000/. in pensions and new expenditure, but they have saved 70,000/. in poor law; and the general opinion appears to be that, so far as the country districts are concerned, the local rates will not lose at all by the pension ; the extra cost of the pensions will be entirely met by the State contribution. I should like to say here that there may be other causes in operation which would tend towards a decreased poor law expenditure. For instance, the Act of 1891 has been passed which, no doubt, would tend to a better administration of the poor law; also the Elberf eld committees, working alongside the boards of guardians, as we should call them, would have a tendency to better administration; and then again we must not forget the fact that Denmark is exceptionally prosperous, owing to the fact that thej^ have got this butter business, and agriciiltural pro- duce business, to a state of verj^ high perfec- tion. All those things together may accoimt for the fact that the Poor Law expenditure has fallen. But I do not think there can be any reason to doubt that there has been a considerable transfer of paupier causes on to the pension list. Mr. Lloyd-George. 952. Perhaps Mr. Davy overlooked one point which he has got in his statement, that the new pension law is an inducement to keep ol¥ the rates after the age of 60 ?—Yes, that is so. Mr. Hedderwich. 95('5. May I ask the total poor relief of which 70,000/. has been saved?—In 1892 it was 438,750/.; in 1896 it dropped to 377,137/. But the value of those figures is merely as afford- ing a comparison as between one year and another. I should not press ' them at all as, for instance, showing the differences of burden of the poor law between England and Denmark, because the classes of cases are so very different. I mean to say that certain ex- penses which would be included in England are not included in this. 954. As far as you can judge from your short experience is it; the fact that pensions are much more popular than poor relief?—Everybody told me that that was the case. 955. Tliey feel that they are better oft' on a pension than they are with the poor relief?— I do not know quite how to explain it, but they do : at least everyliody agrees that they do. 956. There are no disabilities as regarding voting attaching to a pension?—No, the pen- sioner is secure from two or three things. He does not lose his vote. But, then, that only con- cerns the men. not the women. He cannot be removed—^and it always seems to me a consider- aible hardship on a poor person tliat he should be removed from the place where he chooses to live to the plac3 of h's settlement. He can live where he likes, which of course the pauper cannot. 957. And once having got the pension, I think you said it is piractically permanent.*—So they tell me. But that is a matter of administration Mr. Hedderwich—continued, locally. The pension can be taken away, or* varied, or altered. 958. Is there any practical di^flcultJ^, so far as you can judge, in the two systems ; namely, the poor law system and the pension system, being worked by the same authority?—With pensions which are not fixed in amount it seems incon- ceivable that they should be worked by any other authority than the poor law authority. 959. Would that be your opinion with regard to pensions which were fixed in this manner, not on a hard and fast line, but wher^ there was a maximum and minimum. Your observation makes me remember the evidence that was given to us by the Charity Commission the other day; they have systems of pensions, and in all cases there is no fixed amount; but the pension is given between, say, 5'5. and S.s. ?—Yes; but in those (\Tses the pensions would be given out of the charitable funds, and they would not be given to persons in receipt of relief; at least they ought not to be given if, as I suppose, the Charity Commissioners p'ay every sort of regard to Lord Hardwicke's famous decision with regard to charita-ble funds and the poor law. But, you see, they would not be given to paupers and they would be given out of the icharitable funds, whereas these funds may be given to paupers. 960. Do I understand you that in Denmark the person in receipt of a pension may also be in receipt of poor relief ?—No; he could be transferred from one body to the other. 961. Do you mean to say they can stop his pension ? I thought you said it was practically permanent?—If he is in receipt of relief after 60, if he complies with the conditions, he can be transferred from the pauper list to the pensioner list. 962. He cannot be transferred back again ?— Not unless he misbehaves himself, or unless the pension given to him is insufficient to support him. They always contemplate the possibility of that, and then he is relegated to the poor law. Mr. Hedderwich. 963. How can that take place if he has to be off the poor law for 10 years ?—You see he might have been in receipt of relief after he is 60. 9!)4. But lie cannot be in receipt of relief between 50 and 60, or else he would not get a pension ?—No. 9G5. Then how can you transfer a man from the poor law ?-—If a man is in receipt of relief after (iO at the time of the passing of the Act it does not disqualify. Chairman. 966. From what you have seen and learnt of Dennivirk, and your knowledge and experience of the poor law of thi^ country, do you think that a sj^stem of old age pensions, not necessarily on the same lines as the Danish system, might be established with advantage in England ?— You are asking generally as to my opinion ? 967. Yes ?—I cannot conceive how you could adopt any system of pensions in this country which will not be open to the objections which all experience has connected with the grant of outdoor relief. I further think this—and this is a point on whicli I feel veiy strongly—^the poor law has now been in operation in Hrliis country$