Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix.

Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Aged Poor

Date:: 1899

Credit: Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

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$12 June 1899.] Mr. Davy. [Continued. Mr. Lionel Holland. 1052. You said as regards the conditiou of non-receipt of Poor Law relief for the preceding 10 years persons made eveiy effort to keep off the poor relief during those ten years, and charitable societies assisted them?—-Yes. 1053. That would account for the great reduc- tion m the poor rate, because the proportion to popula;tion increases very largely between the ages of 50 and GO ?—I do not know, I know it increastrs very fast after 60, but we have no statistics to show at what period these old-aged paupers come upon the rates, and that has always seemed to me to be a great difficulty in dealing with the question \v England. We know that so many of the population between 60 and 65, and so many above 65, are chargeable to the rates, but we do not know at what period of life they come on; nor do we know in Denmark. But certainly everybody told me that great pressure was put by persons on their friends or upon charitable societies to give them something to enable them to keep off the rates till they were GO. There might be hond fide applications, of course, but it might be a rather i^otent instrument of mendi- cancy. 1054. I think you said the communes put all the people they can on the pension list?—I do not think I said that; I said the figures rather showed a tendency in that direction. 1055. That the object of the communes is to put as many people on the pension list, and as few on the Poor Law list, as possible?—Yes. 1056. But of course they can only put people on who' comply with the tests as to non-receipt of relief, and, now, impTisonment ?—Yes ; the only loophole is the section as to disorderly life and extravagance. 1057. You do not suggest that they put people on the pension list for whom the pensions were not intended?—Their lists are subject to some supervision on the part of the central authority; but my point was rather this; that opinions might vary as to ^^'hether an applicant's poverty was in consequence of: any action for which he was blameable, and different communes might take different views. 105'8. In Copenhagen it is entirely in the hands of Government officials, I understand?— Of municipal officials. 1059. Outside Copenhagen, the supervision is undertaken by the Government officials in regard to the lists which the communes make ?—Yes ; there is a supervision to protect the Treasury. 1060. They would detect the fact if people were put on who were not really qualified to receive a pension?—There would be a certain latitude. 1061. Then as to destitution, it is not exactly the English test of destitution, is it; it is not total absence of means, but insufficient means of maintaining theniielves ?—I do not think there is much dift'erence, practically speaking, between the test for poor relief and the test for pensions in Denmark, and the test for destitution in England. If you have not enough to provide yourself with necessaries, you are destitute. 1062. But in England, if a man owns his cottage, for instance, he would have to get rid of his cottage before he could get Poor Law relief ? Mr. Lionel Holland—continued. —In Denmark that cottage would be registered and might be seized by the authorities. lOG-3. But not in the case of pension, would it?—That I am not certain about. 1064. I suppose a pension would be given to him as long as he could show that lie had not means sufficient to support him?—It might be. 1065. So that it is not precisely the same test as we have in England ?—It is pretty nearly the same, I think. 1066. You pointed ou.t that the result of that test is, in the opinion of many people at any rate, that old people are afraid to work, afraid to save, and afraid to get their friends to help them ?—Tliat is what was written to me. 1067. Then another objection that is taken is, that the payment is not a fixed one, that it varies very much in dift'erent districts ?—Yes. 1068. You say there are economists who object on that ground also?—Yes. 1069. Both those objections apply equally to our Poor Law system with regard to outdoor relief; I mean as to the discretion as to the test of destitution, and as to the amount being in the hands of the Poor Law authority ?—Yes. 1070. I mean those two objections apply not only to pensions in Denmark, but they apply to out-relief in England?—^Yes, with the result that outdoor relief in England, in my judgment, de- liberately has a distinct tendency to lower wages. 1071. But in the original scheme that was in- troduced in Denmark, which you spoke of as the original pension scheme, both those objections were met, to a certain extent; the pension was a fixed pension, and the test was not destitution ? —Yes, that is to say, the original scheme, as it was said to me, was not a Poor Law, but a social law. The objection was that the present pension scheme is a Poor Law, and not a social law, whereas the original proposal was a social and not a Poor Law. The distinction is rather hard to follow, but there is something in it. 1072. On the last occasion you said that you could not conceive how any system of pensions could be brought into effect in this countiy, which would not be open to the objections which all experience has shown to be connected with the giving of outdoor relief ?—-Yes. 1073. But that original pension scheme which was not passed, but which was proposed in Denmark, is not open to all those objections that can be made to outdoor relief?—It is open to a great many, and to the most important of them, according to my judgment. 1074. If the test is not destitution, and if you fix a certain weekly sum of pension to be given, and if the administration is uniform., you avoid those three objections, at any rate, which are objections to outdoor relief in England, that is so, I suppose ?—I suppose you do. 1075. But you condemn outdoor relief also, I understand, because it is less distasteful than indoor relief, and therefore it tempts people to come upon the rates. That would be the general objection to outdoor relief.^—I do not think so; I think there are other much worse objections than that. 1076. What are they ? It is supposed to under- mine independence of character because people can$