Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix.

  • Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Aged Poor
Date:
1899
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Licence: Public Domain Mark

Credit: Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

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    12 June 1899.] Mr. Davy. [Cuntinued. Mr. Lionel Holland—continued, cau come more easily upon the rates than if they are compelled to go into the house?—Yes; but if we put that upon one side, the objection that would apply to outdoor relief and even to the pension scheme that was orig-inally proposed in Denmark would be this : that if a> person received outdoor relief, and was therefore able to continue to work, he would be enabled to take work which ought to be done by independent labourers. We need not talk about lowering wages ; that is another rather more complex question upon which I believethe opinions, especially of modem economists, differ; but there can be no doubt if a. poor person is kept on the labour market be- cause he has enough outdoor relief to pay for the roof over his head he does work which would otherwise be done by an independent labourer. 1077. That would be avoided, would it not, by not giving it to people in regular employment? —No, because it is precisely the unfortunate persons who have to go for casual employment who are the most wronged. 1078. Do you think there would be many people over G5 employed ?—Yes. 1079. In Denmark itself, at any rate, you say you found some people who, from the economic point of view, are in favour of the pension sys- tem ; are they people of any economic standing, and who have studied the subject at all?—Yes, and they defended the pension system by an in- genious argument. I do not know whether it is worth while my stating it to the Committee. 1080. Was it founded upon the results of the pension system ?—No, an a jrriori defence of the pension system as against the socialistic doctrine. Every pension system is probably only logically justified if you are a socialist; but these gentle- men made a defence of the pension system as against the socialistic doctrine. 1081. They were not judging its present effect upon wages or upon thrift ?—No. 1082. They were not judging from actual materials, or from actual results ?—No. 1083. In regard to the economic position of Denmark being specially favourable for this ex- periment, has its trade improved largely?—I believe they have had a very good year. 1084. Is the local taxation this last year heavy or light?—That I cannot say. 1085. The taxation per head in Denmark is almostj as large as the taxation per head in England, I think ?—Certainly they spend a great deal of money. 1080. The trade per head of population is smaller, is it not ?—I do not know. Mr. Lloijd-George. 1087. There was an alternative scheme sub- mitted to the Danish Parliament when this pension scheme was adopted in Denmark, was there not?—Yes. 1088. Can you give us any information with regard to that scheme; it was pirepai^'ed by a very eminent economist, was it not?—Yes, I men- tioned some details of the scheme on the first day of my evidence, but it is a remarkable scheme, and I think it is worth while to refer to it further. The pensions were to be a fixed amount, but not a fixed amount for the whole of Denmark, but fixed for Copenhagen, Mr. Lloyd-George—continued, for the provincial towns, and for the country districts. The whole cost was to be borne by the Treasury. The administrative bodies were the Communes or Committees of the Communal Councils, together with an assessor who ap- parently was to represent the views of the Central Administration, but who was not to vote. What this Communal Council had to decide was whether the applicant was a person without fortune or without means, that is to say, whether he was a labouring man of the class who would probably, when he ceased to be able to work, be obliged to have recourse either to the Poor Law or to private charity, and he was to be 62 years of age. 1089. Was that thei proof of destitution ?—It was entirely apart from destitution, and apart from Poor Law. If you were 62 years of age> and were determined to belong to the class of persons who might be described as persoiiH without fortune; then you were to get a pension according to this scale laid down. 1090. You were to get it as a matter of right? —As a matter of right. The scale was fixed so that heads of families got as much as 4.s. %d. in the countrjr, 55. %d. in the provincial towns, and Qs. 9d. in Copenhagen per week; the single women 25. Sd. in the country, 2s. 8d. in pror vincial towns, and 35. Ad. in Copenhagen ; so that it was a very much larger scale than under the present scheme. That scheme was proposed, but it was defeated, and this scheme was adopted in its stead. 1091. What was the total cost estimated to be?—Nine million kroner, which is, roughly speaking, about half a million of our money. 1092. Have you formed any opinion with regard to the rival merits of these two schemes, from your local investigation ?—No, but the other scheme was clearly a more scientific pen- sion scheme. But I suppose what they had to meet in Denmark would be precisely the same difficulty as we should have to meet in England, and that is, how in the world you can fix a sum of money for the whole of the country; what would be enough in London would certainly be too much in Wales, and yet, if you are going to pay the fixed sums out of the State contribution, there would be an immense difficulty in gradu- ating the payment in accordance with different parts of the country. Those parts of the country whose old people got less might object. That, I take it, was the practical objection which it is difficult to get over in Denmark. 1093. You know the Post Office graduate their scale of payment to postmen according to the cost of living in different towns in England?— That would be a question of wages, you see, and not a question of grant from an imperial fund, equally contributed by the whole of the country, 1094. But still it is a^ question of the cost of living; that is what determines it, is it not?— Yes, 1095. Therefore you could arrive at an approximate scale in this country, could you not ? — Possibly you could by the clear light of reason. 1096. And by the light of experience?—Yes, but I should imagine there would be practical difficulties. 1097. But is opinion growing rather in Den- mark
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