Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix.

  • Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Aged Poor
Date:
1899
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Licence: Public Domain Mark

Credit: Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

    117/466 page 67
    12 June 1899.] Mr. Davy. [Continued. Mr. Lloyd-George—continued. mark in favour of the rejected scheme ?—A great many people told me tliat tlie present scheme would have to be amended and would have to be amended in favour of some sort of fixed pension. 1098. Which is the original s.cheme ?—^Which is the original scheme. 1099. Is opinion growing in favour of the original scheme, then ?—That I cannot say, but I know almost everybody was of opinion that some amendment in that direction would become necessary. 1100. Can you tell me anything as to the rate of wages in Denmark, as to how it compares with the rate in this country?—All I know is this; I made inquiries wherever I went as to what people were paid whose wages I happened to know in England, and they were certainly very much like what we pay. For instance, their nurses get I think to a pound what our nurses get, and generally speaking, I should think the price of cows and such things as I know about, is pretty much the same as in England. 1101. What would the piayment of agricul- tural labourers and dock labourers be there as compared with this country ?—About the same, I think—under 1^, a week—^and the skilled workmen make 35s. a week. 1102. Is the pension regarded as a more honourable method of poor relief than payment under the Poor Law?—Everybody agreed that it was. 110-3. It was regarded as more honourable so far as the public opinion of the class benefitted by it is concerned ?—That is a^ rather more general question than I should care to answer; but everybody agreed that the old people looked at Poor Law relief as degrading, and did not look upon a pension as degrading; which seems to be rather a dangerous symptom from my point of view. Mr. Woods. 1104. Does the stigma of pauperism attach to those who receive the pension ?—None of the disabilities of pauperism. 1105. Could you tell the Committee about what per cent, is the cost of managing the pensions fund ?—I do not think I could ; in fact I cannot find any return of it at all, because it is worked by the same people as work the' Poor Law. 1106. What is the cost of managing the Poor Law?—I cannot tell you that in the country; I could tell you in Copenhagen, but I have not got the figures here exactly; and even that would be a very imperfect basis of comparison with an English union, because they do a great many things that we do not, and we do a great many things that they do not do. 1107. After making your inquiries, do you think that, considering the short period it has been in operation, it has been a success?— Subject to what I said as to 'the law requiring amendment. It is popular, but there seems to be a general concensus of opinion that the law requires amendment, but I never heard any suggestion that it should be withdrawn. 0.29. 15391 Sir Fortescue Flannery. 1108. You told us that there was a practice among the communal authorities who administer the fund, of putting as many persons as they possibly could upon the old age pension fund in preference to the Poor Law, because in that way they relieve t;he expenditure of their districts; am I right?—I do not think I put it quite as broadly as that. I said there was a decrease in the Poor Law expenditure, and it was obviously to the interests of the communes toi put persona who otherwise would be paupers on to the pension list. 1109. Did you, as a fact, find over in Denmark there was a practice of pultting as many ,as possible upon the old age pension fund rather than on the Poor Law fund ?—I cannot say tha;t I saw the actual practice in operation, but I inferred it from the fact Ithat it was to th© interests of the communes to do it, and that the Poor Law expenditure showed a great reduction after the Pension Act was passed, and also because I was told that was the practice. 1110. Then do you suppose from that in- ference that you made that such a practice would be discoiirageid if a portion of the funds were contributed by local rating and another portion by imperial taxation ?—That is the prac- tice there. 1111. Supposing the whole of the funds, either there or here, were contributed by imperial taxation, woul 1 Ihe practice that you have referred to be increased, in your opinion ?—Cer- tainly ; I think then you would come perilously near a national poor rate. 1112. Would you lay it down as a principle from your general experience, that at least a portion of the fund must be obtained from the local rates ?—I am disposed to think that that is absolutely essential; and I go further than that, and I say this from my actual observation : English boards of guardians are not so economi- cal as they used to be, and I attribute that to this reason, that now, what with Exchequer contri- butions, and what with railway rating, and rates derived from the premises of limited liability companies, and so on, the constituents of boards of guardians now do not contribute more than 12s. or 13s. in the £ of the amount they spend; and I think that process oa.rried any further would be excessively dangerous, and strike at the verj^ roots of local government. 1113. What proportion of the funds is contri- buted in Denmark by the imperial taxation and by local rating ?—Half-and-half for the parti- cular purpose of pensions. 1114. Would you consider it wise to have a larger proportion than one-half contributed by local rating for the reasons you have stated?—I certainly think it would tend to more efficient local administration. 1115. If you were making any change as com- pared with half-and-half, that change would be in the direction of an increased contribution from the local rates ?—^Speaking solely from the view of securing more efficient local adminis- tration, I should say yes. 1116. Speaking generally, do you see any reason why the local rates should not contribute a higher proportion in Denmark than one half? P —I am
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