Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix.

  • Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Aged Poor
Date:
1899
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Licence: Public Domain Mark

Credit: Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

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    12 June 1899.] Mr. Davy. [Continued. Sir Fortescue Flannery—continued. —I am not sufficiently acquainted with, the cir- cumstances of Denmark to say; it depends upon tlie former history of local taxation. 1117. But applying the question to England, with your wide experience, what would you say?—I say that you are in a dilemma in the matter. Any pension scheme must have to face this dilemma. If the funds are locally con- tributed the payments must vary according to the judgment of the local authority. In that case you have tw^o difficulties; one, the difficulty of settlement which, mark you, in practice would be a very serious difficulty; and the other would be this, that the sum would vary in accordance with a man's earnings, so that it would be in effect outdoor relief. On the other hand, if you provide the funds by imperial contribution you would get inefficient and unsatisfactory local administration. 1118. Practically, you would consider that a larger proportion than one-half might be paid by local taxation ?—^From the point of view of local administration I would like the local authorities to pay everything; but from the point of view of local taxation I express no opinion; that is another question. 1119. Tiirning to the question of fixing the rate Jor old age pensions, you told us that in Denmark old people were frightened to work, and that children were frightened to help their parents, all because of this point of qualifying the applicants to receive old age pensions?—Yes, that was a quotation from a well-informed cor- respondent. 1120. That is to say, the provision in the Denmark law by which persons who were with a certain amount of means would not be eligible for a pension, led to these abuses?—Yes, that was his statement. 1121. Would you, from that, consider it desirable that there should be no restriction as to the means of the applicant?—You mean assuming that a pension scheme was absolutely necessary ? 1122. I mean assuming a pension scheme was to be formulated Chairman.'] This witness having come to speak specially of the Danish system, I think it is not desirable to put these questions as regards any scheme in England to him. Sir Fortescue Flannery. 1123. On the question of a fixed rate, as com- pared with differential rates between town and country, you formed the opinion in Denmark that the system there was capable of some improvement as regards rates ; I mean as regards a differential rate as between town and country? —There are no differential rates at present; it is according to the option of the local authority. 1124. But in practice, I mean?—In practice the amounts given vary very much. 1125. In your opinion, is that a desirable system, or not?—Wkether it be desirable or not, I think it is absolutely necessary, because if you gave the same amount of pension everywhere, the people in the country would be far better off. Supposing you took a rate of pension which was enough for Copenhagen, and gave that all over the country, some of the country people Sir Fortescue Flannery—continued, would be far better off than the independent labourers who are contributing to their support; whereas, if you took a rate that was enough in the country, the people in Copenhagen would not have enough. Sir James Rankin. 1126. I have only one or two questions to ask you; in your opinion, has the pension scheme in Denmark any effect whatever in promoting thrift?—I should say none. 1127. Because nothing is required of the individual to obtain a pension?—There is no test whatever. 1128. But I think you said that the persons who had a pension thought better of themselves, and were better thought of, than the persons who received relief from the Poor Law?—That was what I understood. 1129. If they themselves had done something to earn a pension, would they not be still more regarded with approbation ?—Very possibly. 1130. Did you hear any opinion expressed upon that point in Denmark?—A good many people told me that they thought those who got a pension ought to earn the pension in some way, but I heard of no definite scheme. 1131. Was that a general opinion, that persons who received a pension ought to have done something to earn it?—Almost everybody said something of the kind. 1132. I think you told us that the amount voted by the Imperial Parliament for the pay- ment of these pensions was a fixed sum each year ?—It is fixed by the general law. 1133. Then supposing it is not sufficient to pay half of the recipients of these pensions, what becomes of those persons who are entitled to a pension, when there is no money to pay it?—I am quite certain the persons who are entitled to a piension get it, but I do not quite know the way in which they do it. In one case I know an advance has been made which is unauthorised by the law. 1134. Is it a sort of supplementary vote?—I suppose that would be it. 1135. I think you stated that the State subsi- dised sick clubs?—Yes, they do subsidise the particular sick club I referred to . 1136. Are those sick clubs analogous generally to our friendly societies?—I think so, but I know that about 20 years, or rather more ago, there were very great complaints of Poor Law medical relief, and the way in which it was abused, much of the same sort as we have had in England, and then I think steps were taken to organise these sick clubs on a better and wider basis. 1137. Are these sick clubs Poor Law organisa- tions or popular organisations ?—They are popu- lar organisations, but encouraged, as I have said, by the Poor Law Act. 1138. Do you think that the State subsidising a sick club, which was to all purposes analogous to a friendly society in this country, would have a bad effect, or a pauperising effect?—My own personal feelings are so much in favour of letting sick clubs alone, in absolute freedom, that I should not like to answer the question without a very long discourse'. 1139. May I ask if you approve of the provi- sion
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