Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix.

Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Aged Poor

Date:: 1899

Credit: Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

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$15 June 1899.] Mr. Geaham. [Continued. Chairman—continued. tnown instances in which secretaries of some of these smaller branches have been incorrect in their accounts ?—I am sorry to say I have, but Ihis is not a question of accounts. 1495. In their statements, I will say?—I should not like to say so in their ordinary state- ments ; I mean the copy of their book. 149G. Do you say there has never been reason to complain of the conduct of the secretaries of any of these smaller branches ?—You are putting me in rather an awkward position when you ask me to answer that question, because of course this is a public inqiiiry; and if you ask me with regard to this matter, whether from a financial point of view none of them have ever taken money that belonged to other people, or, from ignorance, have made wrong returns to the registrar, of course I am bound to say that they iave. Mr. HcdderwicTc. 1497. Are not prosecutions for embezzlement frequent against treasurers and secretaries of small building societies, for instance?—Cer- tainly, I am not here to justify or defend those. Chairman. 1498. But, as I understand, your scheme amounts to this, that the Treasuiy is to be called upon to pay a very large sum of money, be it greater, or be it less, for the purpose of these pensions; it seems to me that the safe- guards for the Treasury proposed by your scheme are totally insufficient; I was trjdng to ascertain whether you could say anj'thing in reply to my questions, to relieve my apprehension that they would be insufficieut; however, I gather you h.ave nothing further to say on that point ?—Of course my opinion is entirely opposed to yours in that respect. It seems to me they could not very well be anyihing but sufficient, seeing that it practically is simply a question of total account; it is not a question of how much a man has in hand, as in the case put to me by the bonourable Member just now; that is another matter altogether. There is no money in hand in this case at all. Mr. Llewellyn. 1499. Why not?—How can there be? It is a tabulation. Mr. Anstruther. 1500. I should like to ask you, with regard to the disqualifications under the scheme, of which you have given an outline in your evidence, do you contemplate any disqualification by reason of conviction for an offence, punishable by fine or imprisonment, or imprisonment without the option of a fine ?—Before I answer that question may I ask you, Mr. Chairman, whether the statement I have given you, and which is in print, will be printed in the Appendix to the Eeport of this Committee ? Chairman. 1501. That is a matter purely for the Com- mittee to consider?—May I ask, also, that the Bill I have prepared, of which I have a printed copy here, should also be added to the Appendix ? Chairman—continued. 1502. If you will hand in a copy of the Bill the Committee will consider that point?—J will do so {handing in the same). Xow I will answer the honourable Member's question. One reason why I asked that question of the Chairman, be- fore answering your question, was because the Bill has many more points than the Chairman, very naturally, had time to go through in his examination of me. There are penalties attached, and this I think will answer the question now put to me. Mr. Anstruther. 1503. The question I asked was whether you contemplated under the scheme, of which you have given an outline, any disqualification by reason of conviction for an oifence punishable by fine or imprisonment, or impirisonment without the option of a fine ?—I will read you what the Bill says : (37.) Every person is liable to imprisonment for not more than three months, with or without hard labour: (a) If by means of any wilfully false statement of or re- presentation, he, or she, obtains, or attempts to obtain, a pension certificate, not being justly entitled thereto ; {b) if by means of personation, or any other fraudulent device whatsoever, he, or she, obtains, or attempts to obtain, payment of any instalment of pension. (38.) In the case of any conviction hereof, the court, in addition to imposing the punishment thereby prescribed, shall also, according to the circumstances of the case, by order (a) cancel any pension certificate which is proved to have been wrongfully obtained, or (b) reduce to its proper amount any pension that has been proved to be larger than the pensioner was entitled to receive. (39.) If any pensioner is convicted of drunken disorderly conduct, or of any offence punishable by imprisonment, for not more than six months, then in addition to any other penalty or punishment imposed, the convicting court may, by order, forfeit not less than one or more than three months' instalments of pension, falling due next after the date of such conviction. (40.) If any pensioner is sentenced to imprisonment for 12 months or upwards in respect of any oifetice dishonouring him in the public estimation, the convicting court shall have power to cancel or otherwise deal with the pension certificate, and in any case where any pension certificate is cancelled by order of a court, the pension shall be deemed to be abso- lutely forfeited. 1504. 'That is as to cancellation; my question referred to disqualification in the first instance, when the application is made. Can you answer that question, whether that is :to be a disquialifi- cation under your scheme, or not?—I am not quit© sure I understand your question ; I thought it was on the lines of the provisions I have read. Chairman. 1505'. Your answer referred to the cancellation of the pension; the honourable Member's ques- tion is A^'hether the circumstances he points out are to be held to be a disqualification for receiving a pension at all ?—I understand. 1506. In$