Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix.

Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Aged Poor

Date:: 1899

Credit: Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

55/466 page 5

$1 June 1899.] 8ir J. E. Dokixgton, Bart, (a Member of the House). {Contivved. Chairman—continued. to their credit. I could give you the figures for each individual year, but I do not think it is necessary. If they have been in ten years, the amount standing to their credit would be 151. 18s. lOd.; if they have been in twenty years, they have got 451. 2s. 6d.; and if they have been in twenty-four years, they have got 18.?. 2d. standing to their credit; so^ that instead of draw- ing 10^. at death as in ordinary societies, they would, if they had been in twenty-four years, have, in case of death, 68/. 18.s-. 2^/. There is a peculiarity in regard to this society which I ought to mention, and that is that ai man who has beeii in less than six years would not have 10/. stand- ing to his credit; therefore, he would be worse off than in an ordinaiy society. A man joining an ordinary society, and beginning to subscribe, if he had the misfortune to die within a twelve- month after being in the society six months, would have 10/., but by the rules of this society he would not have 10/. but would only have what is standing to his credit. But by a^ bye- law which has worked extremely well, and which has been made a rule in some of these societies, a levy is made for the benefit of mem- bers who have less than 10/. standing to their credit; that levy does not appear in the regular accounts. It does not form any part of the general system of accounts; it is carried to a seiparate account, and out of that any defect of payment is made up to any member who has not been in the society a sufficiently long time to accumulate 10/., or whose wife might happen to die before the time. 54. That levy is invariably paid under these circumstances ?—^Yes, for members who have less than 10/. standing tO' their credit. Mr. HedderwicTc. 55. Are there many cases of la.psing members, not from death, but from other causes, within a less period than the six years ?—If a member desires to cease to be a member any longer he gives notice, and he withdraws what is standing to his credit; but when he withdraws it, under theirules of the society he loses the last two years' accretions; that is, the fine on withdrawal. 56. My question was rather, whether there were many lapsing members before the period of six years has expired, not lapsing from death, but from other causes, such as withdrawal ?—I would not say that there are a great many who actually withdraw from the society, but there are a, great many members who withdraw their accumula- tions, and I veiy much regret it, because it de- feats one of the chief objects of the society, which was to produce an old age pension, and, of course, if a member withdraws the fund which is to pro- duce the old age pension, the old age pension cannot be forthcoming. But as these amounts standing to the credit of individual members get large they are sometimes too much for the mem- bers to resist the sight of; they know the money belongs to them, and, in some cases, they draw it, and the withdrawals have been very much larger than I like. Of courses it does not hurt the society at all, but it hurts the member very much indeed, and last year 8,099/. 9^. 8^/. was with- drawn in the way I am speaking of. 0.29. 15391 ChaiiTnan. 57. Notwithstanding these withdrawals, I understand you to say that the society is in no way injured, hwt that it is the person who with- draws who suffers by the loss of pension. What I want to ask is this, on the other hand does that option, or does it not increase the popularity of the society ?—Yes, I think it increased the popu- larity of the society very much indeed. There are two things that have made this society very popular. One is that instead of the fund being accumulated for the benefit of the Stroud Benefit Society, it is accumulating obviously for the benefit of A, B, C, and D, being members, and each member gets a certificate eveiy year stating the amount he has got in the society, and these- several amounts put together amount to the sum I have mentioned, (i8,000/., so that a member feels instead of his getting 10/. on death, and having a large sum of 20,000/. or 30,000/. dangled before his ej^es not knowing who it be- longs to, he knows exactly how much of tha.t large fvmd is his own property. 58. It would appear, considering the compara- tively small number of years that your society has been in existence, it hashad very considerable success. Would j^ou consider that this power of withdrawing the sum that is due to a member is one of the elements of the success of the society ? —I think it is one of the elements of its success. Of course, for one person who draws out there are three people who hold on. 59. It has the effect I suppose of inducing people to join the society?—Yes, the members feel that their money is not swamped and lost, it is really a sort of savings bank. 60. Mr. Woods wishes me to ask what is generally the reason for these withdi-awals. Is it that they cannot resist the temptation, or what is the general reason of their withdrawing the money before they reach the age of sixty-five?— As in all other human affairs the reasons are very various. Some are good and some are bad. Tery often a member draws out for the most excellent reasons. A man may have a wife very ill, and serious trouble in his house, and he wants the money, and he comes and gets it out; or, on the other hand, he may think he has got a better investment for his money elsewhere ; or this happens, he has an opportunity of purchas- ing his own house, and he draws the money out to buy his o'vsti house. That, of course, is a perfectly good reason. Mr. Woods. 61. What I wanted to get at was whether many of these withdrawals were the result of not being able to keep up the payments ?—I do not think so; I am afraid I cannot answer the question as accurately as I should like to do; nobody could llo so unless it were the secretary or the person in actual contact with the members, but I have got particulars about several lodges which per- haps I might read, as they toi some extent will answer your question. Chairman. ()2. Are those lodges branches of this society ? —Yes, either of the Stroud Society or the Ciren- cester one or the Gloucester one. a .1 63. YovjiT$