Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix.

Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Aged Poor

Date:: 1899

Credit: Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

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$1 June 1899.] Sir J. E. Dorington, Bart, (a Member of tlie House). {Continued. Chairman—continued. Poor Law are made sufficient witli tlie additional ielp that the children give. All that would go away. I think that the condition of the old people would be a great deal worse under a sys- tem of State pensions than it is under the exist- ing system, by which they are taught to rely largely on themselves, and only upon the State in case of absolute necessity. 159. Then it is not only upon the outcome of the system of your society that you think the subscribers woull have to rely, but also upon other adventitious means ?—I should be sorry to live upon 55. a week myself, but still a man who is thrifty and has built up this provision for himself is sure to be respected in his own family and by his neighbours, and he probably might be very comfortable with that 5,s. plus the other things which come intO' him. If you create an artificial system you will destToy all those ad- juncts of which perhaps we do not take much account at the present time, but which, I believe, are very important indeed in the lives of the old people. 160. But what I want to arrive at is this: I rather gathered from what you said to me a few minutes ago that, assuming that your system had been e.o+ablished sufficiently long to enable many of the subscribers of the Stroud Society to be in receipt of pensions, that to a very great extent would have solved the difficulty of the aged deserving poor; but now I understand you to say that they would have to look to something else besides that?—I would say that the 5^. a week granted by this society or by any friendly society—^the 55. produced by the reliance of the man \ipon himself—would go a great deal fur- ther than the lis. which was paid to him by the State, and which would be a temptation to im- providence throughout the lives of the lower classes. That is, I believe, the direction in which the mischief would be done. I believe that the one 55. is perfectly healthy; I think that the State 55. would not be healthy. I do not know whether I make myself clear. 161. Yes ?—It is an objection of principle. 162. In your experience of the Poor Law ad- ministration, do many piersons, who belong to friendly societies, come upon the rates in old age except where, for instance, the society has broken, doAvn ?—?s'o. We get those cases, but I do not think we get many. I was looking through the statistics of my Stroud Union of 41,000 people, and I found that the proportion of paiipers there is about the same as in the general population. In Stroud the aged poor receiving relief are just 1 per cent, of the population, which is not a very large niimber. 163. Talking of your Stroud Union, what would be your opinion upon this point. Are there mo^TV old people in the Stroud Workhouse who could live outside of it even if they had 55. a week ?—No, I am quite satisfied that there are not. Of the aged poor receiving relief in the Stroud Union sev^n-tenths have out-door relief, and three-tenths have indoor relief, and I have looked into thnt matf'^r and I am quite satisfied that either from conditions of infirmity or from conditions o* imrroviden^p. the people in the workhous'^ co^ld not possibly l>e out. The mass of them iire sick, you know, but those of them Chairman—continued, who might otherwise have had outdoor relief are deprived of it, because if you gave them 55. at the beginning of the week they would be in the workhouse at the end of the week or be starving. 164. I think it was arranged earlier that you would prefer to give evidence as to who should be the pension authority in connection with any old age pension scheme, on the next occasion that you come here?—I thought Mr. Bickersteth might deal with the whole thing, but I shall be very happy to be here. 165. And anything that you have to say upon the subject you would rather say then?—Yes. I think that had better stand over, if you please; it has nothing to do with the general policy, but only the machinery. Mr. Samuel Hoare. 166. Does your society have meetings of its members from time to time?—Every month. 167. And do the members have a voice in the management?—It is exactly like an ordinary friendly society; the management is done by the officers of the lodges, and they form a grand lodge. 168. And those officers are, I take it, elected by the members?—They are elected in their lodges. There is nothing peculiar in the organi- sation of the society. Sir James Ranlcin. 169. Do you think or do you not that the pro- mise of something which will be done by the State when a man attains the age of sixty-five, if he himself has done something during his adult life, would not stimulate that man to do that something?—I have already said with re- gard to the friendly societies that it certainly would stimulate the friendly societies. 170. But supposing that a man was asked to do something by way of obtaining an annuity for himself in any way, through the Post Office for example, would not a promise of some pay- ment by the State in old age stimulate his efforts in adult life?—My objection to that is, not that it would not stimulate him, but that you never could support politically the giving to one class of people a superior rate of interest, and one which is not earned but is only produced out of the taxes which you do not give to everybody,, and you cannot give it to everybody. 171. But if all persons were^ allowed to do the same thing, that is to say, to obtain the same amount of annuity through various sources, and to get the same reward for it, is that giving any advantage to one class ?—If you or I were allowed to invest so much money at six per cent, all our lives, do you mean ? 172. What I mean is, if a person was allowed to earn the amount given by the State, either by a Post Office annuity or a friendlj^ society an- nuity, or by an insurance office annuity, would you consider that that was giving a preference to any particular class ?—Yes, it is giving a pre- ferential rate of interest to a particular class. 173. What is the particular class ?—The class that chose to take that way of investing money. 174. But is not that a class (if you call it a class) whose efforts should be stimulated?—I should like to stimulate their efforts, but you must$