Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix.

Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Aged Poor

Date:: 1899

Credit: Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

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$5 June 1899.] Sir H. Longley, k.c.b., and Mr. Feaeon, c.b. {Continued. Chairman—continued. larger area than that which is indicated in the orig-inal trixst?—Our schemes under the Charit- able Trusts Acts, of which we are speaking now, are all made in execution of the doctrine of cy-pres, and if it were found that the original area was too small to absorb the full benefit of the charity, we should, in that case, have power to extend the area. I am speaking now of the power we should have technically. 291. Have you ever considered whether it would be an advantage, so to speak, to pool the charities of a considerable district, say a union, or even a county; and convert them, by a scheme, into pensions ?—I think it would in the abstract, but I should doubt the possibility of doing it except by some very stringent enact- ment. 292. You have no power to do it, at all events, at piresent?—We have no power to do it at present. 293. Now with regard to pensions, I want to ask you a few questions relating exclusively to that point ?—Might I first qualify my last answer by a reference to paragraphs 24 and 25 of our 40th Report—merely by way of expansion of niy answer? 294. Will you kindly read them ?—Paragraph 24 is: Prior to the passing of the Endowed Schools Act, 1869, public attention had not been specially directed to the application, on any general principle, of Dole Funds to purposes of greater benefit to the poor. It has already been mentioned that, by Section 30 of that Act, funds applicable, among other purposes, to the distri- bution of doles in money or in kind, were made capable, under certain conditions, of diversion to educational purposes. In 1874 the jurisdic- tion conferred by the Endowed Schools Acts was transferred to our Board. x\t an early period in the course of the exercise by us of that juris- diction, we formed the opinion that the mischief incident to the di^tiibution of doles might be srtill further diminished, and substantial benefit conferred upon the poor, if powers, similar to those thus given in resipect of educational pur- poses, were conferred upon us for the appropria- tion of Dole Charities to other purposes,dift'er- ing, in most cases less widely, and in no cases more widely, from those of their foundation than the educational purposes contemplated by the Endowed Schools Acts. Paragraph 25 is : It was in these circumstances that we reported as follows to your Majesty in page 5 of our Twenty- third Eeport (for 1875'): ' By virtue of the powers conferred upon them by the Endowed Schools Act, 1869, the Commissioners can, with the consent of the trustees, apply endowments of this kind' (that is. Dole Charities) ' to the pur- poses of education; but, with this exception, they have at present no powers which would enable them to meet the wishes of any locality for a more advantageous disposal of funds so often found to be useless and even mischievous in their present mode of application. Great advantage would often arise from the exercise of • such powers, by means of which, without so complete a change in the objects of the trust as is in- volved in the devotion of the funds wholly to education, useless or mischievous Dole Charities 0.29 15391 Chairman—continued, might be utilised for objects conducive to the material and moral well being of the poor.' 295. I gather, then, there are various direc- tions in which you think improvements might be made, ,so far as the distribution of these charities is concerned, by further legislation ?— Certainly. 296. Has legislation been proposed upon this pointP—Yes, two or three times; in the Chari- table Trusts Bills of 1881 and 1883. Neither of those Bills got very far, but there was a clause in each of those Bills with the view of giving effect to the suggestion there made. I do not think that clause was ever discussed on its merits in either House of Parliament. 297. When was the last occasion on which the clause was introduced ?—In the Bill of 1883. 298. It has never been tried since?—No. Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice. 299. Was that a Government Bill ?—Yes, it was a Government Bill; th ey were both Govern- raeiit Bills. -'iOO. Tliere was a private Bill brought in by Mr. Rath bone, was there not?—Yes, in 1870; that Bill contained a similar provision. I am not quite sure whether that Bill had that clause in it or not. I do not think it had. The Bills of 1881 and 1883 were Lord Selbonie's Bills. Chairman. 301. Now, with regard to the question of pen- sions, you have been good enough to supply me with copies of two typical schemes, one for a rural parish in Herttordslnre, and the other for a London parish, the parish of St. George the Mai-tyr ; these schemes, I understand, are made by the Commissioners^—^Yes. 302. They are entirely responsible for them ? —They are. 303. And for the conditiops laid down in these schemes?—Yes, which are the usual conditions, not special to these particular cases. 304. When the schemes are made, who are they administered by?—Bodies of trustees ap- pointed by these schemes. 305. Trustees appointed for thei p^urpose?— Yes. 306. Are the trustees solely responsible for the administration of the scheme, or have the Com- missioners any say in the matter ?—The trustees are responsible, and if complaints are made, I think I can indicate by reference to a clause in that scheme the extent of their responsibility. The last clause in all our schemes is this (I am reading now from Clause 36 of the scheme of the Berkhamsted Charity): Any question as to the construction of this scheme or as to the regu- larity or the validity of any acts done or about to be done under this scheme, shall be deter- mined conclusively by the Charity Commis- sioners, upon such application made to them for the pnrpose as they think sufficient. So that we are a sort of court of appeal if any difference of opinion arises as to tlie administration of the scheme. And, further, the trustees are bound to send use yearly their accounts. 307. Do they send in any report, as well as the accounts?—No, they are not bound to do more than send the acieounts. I 308. Or$