Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix.

Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Aged Poor

Date:: 1899

Credit: Report from the Select Committee on Aged Deserving Poor ; together with the proceedings of the Committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

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$8 June 1899.] Mr. J. Bickeksteth. \Continued. Sir Walter Foster—contiuuecl. G84. That is a grant made from time to time at the discretion of the guardians?—I do not know whether I ought to produce it, but I have ill my hand a list of persons in receipt of per- manent relief in one of our unions showing that there are 300 persons in receipt of permanent outdoor relief. Their practice is not to put a man or woman on to pennanent relief unless they have young children, or are over 60; or rather, I should say, they are not limited by age, but they would be old or worn-out people. Here, then, is an aipproximate list of the worn-out people in one of our unions, and, excluding children, it comes to 290. 685. That would be about the same number that one might expect from statistics to have applying for pensions ?—That would mean iu my county, in the 12 unions, about 200 or 190 persons in each union. 686. That would mean a total number of, say 3,000, in each county ?—Taking it at 190 in each union it would be 2,280 pensioners in the county. 687. Say, 3,000 roundly for the county. That would not be an enormous number to deal with, would it?—They would be scattered over a very wide area. 688. But I am not dealing with the distribu.- tion of pensions to them at the moment, I am dealing with the simple fact of judging on their merit for the grant of pension once in each case ; that is all yovi have got to do ?—If we were only to take the first year I do not think the com- mittee would get through the work in 48 meet- ings. I am, perhaps, taking for granted that they would meet at 12 different places. I do not know whether you give me that. 689. I will give you your 12 places, and four meetings at each place, if necessaiy ?—And 190 applicants in each union. 690. Recollect that it is not a stupendous amount of work to be got through, and that would only be at first ?—Yes. 691. How long would they sit during each meeting?—That would depend so much upon what there was to do, but I can quite imagine if you give the county council much responsibility as to pensions if the qualifications are numerous, it would take longer; but if you say the qualifi- cations are to be pait down in black and white that the applicant is to be a membier of a, friendly society and of a certain age, those bare facts could be checked by the officials before the com- mittee met, and then they would get through them quickly. It depends entirely upon what they have to do. 692. Done in that way, the thing is not such a stupendous piece of work as you might have thought ?—If the county council, or rather I will say if the pension authority is not given a dis- cretionary power in each case; that is, if they have not to exercise a judgment in each case, the work is done like clockwork; it is done by ma- chinery, and it is easy enough. 693. But if they have a discretionary power, resting on certain disqualifications (not qualifi- cations, but disqualifications), then the work would be comparatively simple if the disqualifi- cations were few in number and very clear?— Yes. The inspector, of course, would have to Sir Walter Foster—continued, ascertain the disqualification, and he would have to be a skilled officer; but in one of the Bills, I think there is a power to' remit disqualifica- tions. There is a dangerous power, as I consider it, to retiy a judicial decision as to a man's character. 694. Those are minor paiticulars which, of course, would multiply the work very largely ?— In speaking of the volume of the work it does depend very much upon the machineiy that you g-ive us. 695. Until that whole machinery is absolutely before you in the particular scheme, you cannot give a definite opiinion as to the amount of labour that would be entailed ?—No. All I can say is that it would be absolutely necessary for us to have officials equal in calibre to the relieving officers who would be able to check their returns. 696. Or some source of information equally good with that ?—I do not think it would be possible to get any other source of information but that of paid officials. 697. The parish councils could be utilised for this piurpose to some extent, could they not?— I do not think that the parish councils could safely be trusted to exercise any very grave judicial authority as to applicants from those particular parishes for pension. 698. Do you not think that the parish councils, especially if it had to bear a- certain burden of the pensions, under some scheme or other, would exercise a very careful scrutiny into every applicant whom they had, not to grant a pension to, but to make a report upon?—^I am in almost daily communication with individual parish councils, and I had a letter from a parish council only last week asking me what they were to do, because neither the chairman nor the clerk can take a note of their proceedings. It is difficult for me, with that experience, to say that I could recommend yovi to let parish councils exercdsei veiy grave judicial functions. 699. But they are not judicial functions ; they are recommending functions, or nominating functions, that I suggest ?—I should be inclined to fear that the good nature of the parish councils would be greater than their prudence. 700. Are you acquainted with many of the gentlemen of the class you refer to as members of parish councils; are yoii aware, in fact, that some of them are members of boards of guardians in various parts of the country?— Some of them are. 701. Are not those members of boards of guardians very often very efficient and very economical members ?—Yes. 702. Is it not the general experience that they guard the rates as carefully as any other members of the boards of guardians ?—Yes. Of course the parish council includes everybody. 703. I am speaking of the gentlemen you spoke of as not being able to take a note of the proceedings—that is, the working class members of boards of guardians; are there many such throughout the country on boards of guardians who are generally (sO' far as I am informed) characterised by a very careful administration of their fiinds?—I have no experience of that; I cannot express an opinion as to that. 704. You$