Eleventh report from the Select Committee on Estimates : together with the minutes of evidence taken before sub-committee E and appendices, session 1950-1951: regional hospital boards and hospital management committees.
- Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons. Select Committee on Estimates
- Date:
- [1951]
Licence: Public Domain Mark
Credit: Eleventh report from the Select Committee on Estimates : together with the minutes of evidence taken before sub-committee E and appendices, session 1950-1951: regional hospital boards and hospital management committees. Source: Wellcome Collection.
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![15 February, 1951.] M {Continued. board or officers?—The sum would be spent before he would know anything at all about it. 910. That is the point?—It would all be spent before he knew anything at all about it. The auditor would call his attention to it, and we should get a very serious rebuke. Probably he would say, “If you do those silly things I shall remove you from the committee ”’. 911. That is his only remedy?—That is his only remedy. Mr. J. Enoch Powell. 912. He cannot recover it?—He cannot recover it. 913. Because the person spending it is his own agent?—That is right. Mr. Thomas Reid. 914. Take another case. Suppose one of your employees was overpaid for a period of six months through a sheer mis- take. What would happen then?—If he was an honest employee he would return the money. If he was not then neither we nor the local committee could recover it. The Minister would simply have to bear the expenditure. Mr. J. Enoch Powell. 915. In that case, if the overpayment was due to an employee being placed in a grade in which he ought not have been placed, if he is paid more than his salary under contract presumably the overpayment is recoverable?—It might be recoverable. There are cases where you pay more than you should, and you cannot recover it. Anyway, whatever the position may be, the Minister cannot recover the money from the chairman cf the committee, the members of the committee or any person who signs cheques. Chairman. 916. The committee are not responsible to you directly for expenditure at all?— Provided it is within their estimate we have no control over the details. 917. You may not have approved it, but the committee account directly to the Minister?—Yes. 918. They are not your agents; they are agents of the Minister direct?—-They are both. The management committee is the agent of the regional board, but the man- agement committee is also the agent of the Minister. 919. The audit is carried out by the Ministry of Health’s auditor?—Yes. 920. You have no auditors at all?—No. 921. Is there no internal audit?—No. 922. There is only one audit, and that is carried out by the auditors of the Minis- try of Health?—Yes. It is very carefully done. He spends a long time over it. Mr. Diamond. 923. Are you Satisfied that there is in no hospital any system of internal audit, as that phrase is used?—(Mr. Everingham.) I have tried my best to encourage internai auditing in some cases within a hospital management committee. Onlv hospital management committees have powers to carry out any audit; I have none. But wherever a hospital management commit- tee is really large enough and opportunity occurs where something has happened which would not have happened if there had been an efficient internal auditor, I try to get one put in, but it is very diffi- cult indeed. One does not know what has happened in the way of loss until one gets the auditor’s annual report. The annual reports of auditors have to be sent to the Board, but any interim report does not. An interim report goes direct to the Ministry, and we may or may not get a copy of it. We do not know at the regional board necessarily what has happened until the annual report comes in, and then if that refers to anything we have a chance to look at it. (Sir Basil Gibson.) The answer really is that, speaking broadly. there is no inter- nal auditor or audit staff in any hospital, under the control of a management com- mitte, responsible to the regional board. 924. Or any ovartial form of internal audit?—No. 925. Is it your view that there should be? —What we should like to do is to carry out the internal audit in a hospital our- selves. Chairman. 926. You are now referring to your recommendations in effect. at the foot of page nine of the memorandum?—Yes. We should prefer to do the audit ourselves because once you get inside a management committee’s cffice an auditor can see a great deal. Wing Commander Geoffrey Cooper. 927. The regional board would have an audit system, and you would send out your people to do the checking at the various hospitals under your control?—Yes. Chairman. 928. Have you put up that suggestion to the Ministry of Health?—I think we have. I am certain it has been discussed over and over again, but I could not put my finger on any particular time when it was or on any letter in which it was sug- gested. It is common knowledge at the Ministry. 929. Do you know what the Ministry’s objection is?—I think they prefer their own audit, that is all.](https://iiif.wellcomecollection.org/image/b32182478_0117.jp2/full/800%2C/0/default.jpg)
