[Reports and Appendices] of the Irish Milk Commission, 1911.

  • Great Britain. [Royal] Commission on the Irish Milk Supply.
Date:
1913
Catalogue details

Licence: In copyright

Credit: [Reports and Appendices] of the Irish Milk Commission, 1911. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

    1038/1108 (page 156)
    15G got do not quite correspond with that, but still they are on that same principle. 32315. This has been drawn up with a wide experience ?—Yes. 32316. Dealing with the circumstances that have arisen and come under observation after careful working of the Order?—Yes, that is so. 32317. You think, then, in the outer areas, they are in an unsatisfactory condition at the present moment?— Some of them are very bad; others, of course, are much better. 82318. I quite follow. Have you ever sought to induce the owners of premises sending milk into Sheffield to improve them by making alterations?—Yes, what has been done is this. We have reported to the medical officer of health that such a farm is fOuud in a very unsatisfactory condition. He then finds out the medical officer of health in which the farm is situated, and writes to him, and leaves him to accomplish the rest. In some cases much has been done, because I have been often sent out by the medical officer to go and advise the owners or agents as to what we think should be done to make the place sanitary. 32319. In some places a great deal has been done, and in some cases nothing?—Quite so. 32320. And you have no mean? of compelling it?—No. 32321. In every district you are obliged to visit do you find there is a veterinary officer appointed by the ^ local authority?—No, not as far as milk is concerned. 32322. And no supervision is exercised over the cows other than what you give them?—No. 32323. Are you obliged to have recourse to a magis- trate's order?—Yes, we never go out without one. 32824. Has yom- reception been sometimes chilly?— No. There are isolated instances, but the farmers, as a rule, welcome inspection. Of course, you get a cantankerous man now and again. What they do kick about is getting rid of the cows and having them slaughtered without compensation. 32325. That is the great difficulty?—Yes. 32326. And do you think yourself, if the thing is ever to be dealt with on a commercial basis, that it can be done without giving them some compensation?—No, I do not think it can be done without giving them compensation. No scheme of notification I have evei' known has been satisfactory unless there was compensa- tion accompanying it. 32827. With regard to the area within the city boundary, have you there ever paid compensation for animals so slaughtered?—No, we have paid no compen- sation. 32328. Are you able to succeed in inducing cow- keepers to get rid of suspected animals?—In most cases, yes. We have to some extent the whip hand on them. The tuberculous milk clauses of the Act give us power to summons for failure to notify. I might say notifica- tion is practically a dead letter under those clauses. They also give us certain powers to prohibit the milk supply coming from outside, or from a dairy farm inside the city. By exposing our hand and telling them certain things would have to be done they generally fall in. I have a case this week where the farmer thought there was nothing much the matter with the cow. As a matter of fact, it will be killed next Monday. 32329. If that cow happened to be in a dairy in the outer area you would have no means of securing that her milk would not be sent into Sheffield?—The only possible way of being certain is to get the cow slaughtered, and in the majority of cases we have oot the cow slaughtered. 32330. Even in the outer area?—Yes. Since the Farmer's Union has been in existence we have had a little more trouble than previously, but I think the opposition is dying down. 32381. A sort of agricultural trade society?—It is a large Union, formed by the farmers in England three or four years ago, to fight the warrantv question against the Butchers' Federation on tuberculosis. 32382. And it has extended its operations into other walks of agricultural industry?—Yes, it is a strong body at present. 32333. And they employ professional assistance to resist any prosecutions or to defend any member accused ot breaches of local regulations?—We have not had a large number of prosecutions, only some six or seven during the last eleven years, in regard to failure to notitv, and m those cases we have had very ridiculous penalties. The highest has been a sovereign. 32334. Those are by no means prohibitive?—The clause itself provides for a full penalty of £2, so that if we get a sovereign we get fifty per cent. In some cases they have only had to pay 3s. 6d. and the costs, and in these cases we make an enemy of the farmer. 32335. It is not a deterrent?—No good at all. 32336. In fact, it leaves the matter worse than it was before?—Yes, we have made an enemy. 32337. The man will fight you and say you have done your worst, and I don't care what you do against me? —An order has been made to prohibit the milk supply, but, generally speaking, the farmer has not cared, and in some cases he has been glad, because it has allowed him to break his contract. 32338. If he had a bad contract made?—Yes, sir. I find the advice of an experienced veterinary surgeon, in whom they have confidence, will, in the majority of cases, get you through. 32339. Do you carry out -post mortem examinations? —In the majority of cases. Of 281 cases I do not suppose w-? missed a dozen. 32340. Tubercle bacilli were to be found more or less well developed in some of the organs of the body?—I have yet to see a cow that has got a tuberculous udder and has not got disease in the mesenteric glands. 32.34]. Do you control the inspection of the abattoir as well?—Yes. 32342. And, of course, you have large experience there of seeing post mortams'}—Unfortunately we have a. very large number of private slaughterhouses. We have 185 in tile city. 32343. Professor Mf.ttam.—Three times as many as Dublin, and we thought it was unusually well pro- vided?—We have 37 in one position, called the Killing Shambles, under the Corporation, and all the rest are scattered about tlio town in the hands of private butchers. 32344. The Chaiuman.—Has any attempt been made to compel them to do their slaughtering in the public abattoir?—There is not the accommodation. The City Council have had in view the matter of providing an abattoir for some years, and at present they are negotiating for a large site close to two railways. If that comes to a head there will probably be a good modern abattoir built and equipped. 82345. Do you ever find clinical Symptoms in the udders likely to excite suspicion which do not prove to be tuberculous after-wards?—Yes. 32346. And in those cases how would you determine in the absence of the use of the tuberculin test?—We take a sample of milk and send it to the Sheffield University bacteriological department. 32847. If the certificate shows that the milk is infected?—Then we follow up the cow. 32848. I suppose microscopical examinations are taken as confirmatory of clinical symptoms?—I have only known one instance where a failure has been made. This particular case w^as a cow with a tubercular udder, situate in a cowshed close to the laboratory at Manchester. Professor Delepine's assistant discovered acid fast bacilli, which he reported were tubercle. Professor Delepine at that time wanted a series of tuberculous milk samples from the same udder for further investigation. I arranged to let him have a sample, say, every other day, roughly. But on fetching subsequent samples I found that the cow's udder was getting better. I reported that to the medical officer of health, and he reported it to Professor DeMpine. In the meantime it had been arranged that the cow should be killed on a certain date, and on examination it was found that the cow was free from the disease. On complete examination the original sample of milk was also found to be free of infection. I\Ir. WinsoN.— Sacrificed to science. 32349. Professor Mettam.—What was the source of these acid fast bacteria?—I don't know. 32850. You took the milk yourself?-1 took the sample myself, and I don't know where they came from. 82351. The Chairman.—Is there any diminution in the percentage of infected samples?—The percentage varies from 17.8 in 1902 to 6.7 in 1904, and up again as far as 10.4 in 1910. Practically speaking, I think we can say that the milk supply of the country is tuberculous to the extent of ten per cent. That is my experience. We had a big discussion on this last year when Professor Delepine gave us a paper on the subject, and gave us interesting figures from several large towns. He struck an average of ten per cent. 82852. Notwithstanding the diligence with which inspection is carried out?—We do not do the least bit of