Minutes of evidence taken before the Royal Commission on Lunacy and Mental Disorder.

  • Great Britain. Royal Commission on Lunacy and Mental Disorder.
Date:
1926
Catalogue details

Licence: Public Domain Mark

Credit: Minutes of evidence taken before the Royal Commission on Lunacy and Mental Disorder. Source: Wellcome Collection.

    13/1038 (page 3)
    MINUTES 7 October, 1924.] [ Continued. 22. I think that Lord Shaftesbury and Mr. Phillips, a well-known Commissioner in Lunacy, and Dr. Bland- ford, all gave valuable evidence before that Com- mittee ?—That is so. I should say that Lord Shaftes- bury objected very much indeed to bringing in the Justice to make an order. That was one of the recommendations of that Select Committee. He felt it was going to interfere very largely with the real interest of the insane person, and he resigned the Chairmanship of the Lunacy Commission rather than be a party to carrying out that new proposal. 23. Then there was also, in 1905, a Royal Commis- sion, presided over by Lord Radnor, which issued its report in 1908?—Yes. 24. I think that report is useful as containing a full account of the constitution and procedure of the Lunacy Commission of England and Wales?—That is so, and a great deal of the evidence which they took would really be very valuable to-day, if any members were able to peruse it. 25. Do you suggest that the Members of the Com- mission might to some extent abbreviate the extent of our present Inquiry by referring to that evidence? —I think they might to some extent, certainly. 26. Especially in regard to non-controversial matters?—Yes. They will see a great many points were thoroughly considered. 27. Yes; it is useful for us to know that. Then another general question: The Lunacy Commissioners who preceded the Board of Control, and now the Board of Control itself, were formed, [ take it, for the pur- pose of having a central body which should supervise and control the general administration of the Lunacy Law throughout the country ?—That is so. 28. May one take it that the methods of super- vision and control entrusted to the Board take the form of various safeguards in the matter of licensing premises in which insane persons may be detained, in visiting places where such persons are detained, in obtaining reports upon the condition of persons de- tained, tabulating and arranging statistics, collating information regarding insane persons, and ensuring the execution of the law in conformity with the Statutes and Rules?—Yes; that is a general state- ment. In addition to that, copies of all the docu- ments on the admission of any patient to an institu- tion for lunatics have to be furnished to the Board at the time, and they are very carefully scrutinised. If, for example, an admission document does not seem to show a sufficient ground for the detention of a patient, further inquiry is made. 29. One cannot read the Acts, I think, without noticing the importance attached to the Board of Control being apprised of what we may call every stage in the history of the insane person?—Yes; all the time we know everything that is going on about them. Dr. Bond mentions that on the occasions of visits by Commissioners to these institutions they make a great point of actually seeing the patients and talking to them; any of them that want a private interview can get a private interview. 30. Of course, a little later on we will discuss what is done. One wants to get at the start of this Inquiry a conspectus of the situation, so that we may understand the details when we come to con- sider them. I have stated in general terms the province of the Board of Control?—Quite, 31. It keeps in touch, if I may so put it, at every stage with the history of the persons affected P—Yes ; and it was considered desirable to gather all of it together in one Department, a sort of separate Government Department, rather than to merge it into some other big Department like the Home Office, the Ministry of Health, or the Local Govern- ment Board. 32. Of course, we are the inheritors, are we not, of a somewhat complicated system in the past. What other bodies or persons are concerned with the insane persons in this country, besides the Board of ControlP—Of course, to some extent, the Lord Chancellor is concerned with them. 33. He has a certain ancient jurisdiction, has he not ?—Yes. 34. Does that relate to the person as well as to the property ?—Yes, to some extent, to the person— those lunatics who are found so by inquisition, of which there are very few. He is concerned with the actual care of the person in those instances; he has his own visitors. 35. His jurisdiction is chiefly derived, is it not, from the common law rather than from Statute ?— Yes. Of course, to some extent, he has powers under the Lunacy Act of 1890, but largely it is common law jurisdiction. 36. Then in addition to the Lord Chancellor’s jurisdiction, is there any other body?—The Home Secretary, of course, has jurisdiction over criminal lunatics. The Minister of Health has no jurisdiction over the persons of lunatics, but plans for new asylums have to receive his approval, and loans for new asylums have to receive his approval. The method of doing that is for the Board of Control to investigate the matter thoroughly; it sometimes means months of investigation before you can settle on the plans of a big new institution which is going to cost anything from half a million to one million pounds; then they pass on, after they have been investigated, to the Minister of Health. The Lord Chancellor sanctions rules which we make for the government of asylums. 37. Do you think that any disadvantage has arisen from what I may call the distribution of functions among those different bodies?—Well, I think it is desirable that the Board of Control should be able to go to the Minister of Health for his side of it, just in the same way that the Ministry of Health, as a Department, goes to the Minister; but we do not do that nowadays. If, for instance, we have to go to the Minister at all, we go to him like any member of the public goes to him on many questions. I am not sure that there is not some duplication of work there. 38. It naturally occurs to one that if there are two bodies or authorities concerned with the matter who have specially to deal with the safeguards relating to lunatics there might be some overlapping P—Yes; on the safeguards I do not think there are two. The Minister of Health, like a number of other people, may have letters sent to him. There is a section say- ing that letters sent to him, and to Judges, and so on, shall be sent unopened. The usual plan is for the Judges or the Lord Chancellor or the Minister to send them on to us, and ask us what we know about the case; but as to the safeguards of the pereon, I should say they are in the Board of Control, they are not spread about. 39. But take the Lord Chancellor’s jurisdiction. Do you ever find that the Board of Control and the Lord Chancellor are both engaged in investigating the state of any particular lunatic?—Well, in some few cases he visits the same cases that we visit, and if his medical man and our medical man did not quite agree as to the course to be taken about ‘the patient, we should communicate one with the other; we hhave never any difficulty in that way. His powers in that matter, as I said just now, relate to some very small number, a few hundreds, whilst we deal with over 100,00. 40. But he has certain medical visitors whose functions are not exclusively confined to lunatics found so by inquisition ?—No, not exclusively. If an order is made about their property he sends one of his visitors to see the case. 41. So that in the matter of investigating parti- cular cases there are two authorities at the moment? —For this small number. 42. But you have not experienced any inconveni- ence from that duplication, have youP—No. I have often felt myself that the visitation of all these people should be done by the Board of Control. As to the inquisition cases, we do not visit those at all. I could give you the actual number, but it is a very small number; the procedure is almost obsolete. 43. Arising out of that, have you any views, Sir Frederick, as to the desirability of continuing this distinction between lunatics so found by inquisition