Minutes of evidence taken by the Royal Commissioners appointed to consider the draft charter for the proposed Gresham University in London ... / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of Her Majesty.

  • House of Commons
Date:
1894
Catalogue details

Licence: Public Domain Mark

Credit: Minutes of evidence taken by the Royal Commissioners appointed to consider the draft charter for the proposed Gresham University in London ... / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of Her Majesty. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by Royal College of Physicians, London. The original may be consulted at Royal College of Physicians, London.

    53/1410 page 47
    '' the question as to whether or not it would be desirable to have a Bachelorship in Medicine or only a Doc- torate. The University would stand in a somewhat '' different position to the existing Universities, in that '' its men would be required to have to provide themselves with a license to practice before being admitted to the '' examination for the degree; and it might fairly be '' considered that the fact of their having obtained such a license to practice from a body of such status ought to entitle the holder to the degree pyr saltum. If that implies the omission of the M.B. Degree, which has hitherto been taken as connoting a certain amount of academical distinction, it seems to me that it will be difficult to distinguish the M.D. from the licenses of the Corporations. 1061. Is it usual in a Charter to lay down hues on which a degree has to be given. It is generally left to the University, is it not ?—Yes, no doubt, my Lord, but in the absence of definition in the Charter, one can look only to the intentions of those who are largely responsible for the movement in favour of such a University. I may say that the standard of the University of London is not fixed by any Charter. It is fixed partly by tradition, partly by continuity of examiners, and largely it has arisen as a call from without. It has met with a response, and the statistics of the University show, that in spite of the high standard of the degrees, there is a great demand for the honours which the University bestows. I have before me statistics from the year 1838, and the last year's entrances for Matriculation are larger than those in any previous year. In 1891 there were 2,889 candidates, and I hear that the entrances for this June Matriculation are again larger than ever. That obtains with most of the Intermediate Examinations, and with the Pass Examina- tions in most of the Faculties, in spite of the high standard of the degree. There is at any rate a great demand for the degrees of the University of Loudon as they are. I instituted a comparison, merely for my own information between the number of students going up for Matriculation at the University of London, and the number of students attending University and King's Colleges. Those figures were given in the last Com- mission Report for King's College on page 231, and for University College on page 216, and it appeared that the abolition of the requirement of certificates from affiliated colleges in the year 1858 by the University of London did not operate detrimentally as regards numbers upon either King's College or University College, and I find that from the year 1879 onwards, while the candidates coming to London University Lave enormously increased, (from something a little over 1,400 to something over 2,800), the students attendingUniversity and King's Colleges have hardly increased at all, but in the later years, and in certain Faculties especially, have rather declined. That {handing a diagram to the Chair- man) merely represents diagramatically the result (for this diagram see Appendix No. 3.) It therefore appears to me that it is not fan- to say that there is no demand for the examinations of the London University as they are, and it would perhaps be more difficult to establish the claims of University and King's Colleges at the present time to be flourishing institutions. 1062. Do you think anything could be put in the Charter to ensure that the degree should not be made unduly easy of attainment ? Is there anything of that kind that you can suggest ?—I think the character of the degrees must always follow the composition of the governing body. 1063. Why do you think the fact of the medical pro- fession being very strongly represented on the governing body would tend to make medical degrees easier ? Is it that you think that the medical men concerned in the government of the University would be anxioits that a larger number of students should gain a degree am afraid when I take into consideration the statements that have been made by members of the Committee of the British Medical Association and by several medical teachers before the last Commission, and by Sir George Young and Mr. Erichsen, that there is a desire for a lower degree in London—considerably lower—than that which is given by the present University of London. 1064. You think that each of the 10 representatives on the Council of the London Medical Schools would advocate the degree being made unnecessarily easy, or the representatives of the Medical Faculty ? Would they be anxious to degrade the degree practically F —Ten of the representatives would be of course repre- sentatives of the medical schools other than those of the University and King's Colleges, and two would represent w. J. (Jollins, those of University and King's. Esq., M.D.,' 1065. You think they would not wish to keep up the M.S., B.Sc, degree ?—I can only gather from the opinions of respon- F.R.C.S. sible medical teachers that they do desire that there should be a lower degree ; and it does seem to me that 9 16 1892' there is a tendency for the degree to approximate to the examinations given by the Corporations—the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons—to the M.B.C.S. and the L.R.C.P. Whether it is desirable or not that that should be the case is of course a matter for discussion, but at any rate it would give a title which has usually implied academical distinction as the result of an ex- amination, to that which has hitherto been regarded only as a professional mark or a professional license. Medicine is the only Faculty in which there appears to be a demand by those who have passed a mere qua- lifying examination for the highest academical title. No doubt the trouble only arises from the ambiguity of the title of Doctor. It implies a profession as well as an academical distinction. 1066. Then one of your objections to this new scheme is that you think it would make the medical degree too easy. Is there any other particular objection you would like to state ?—I think most of the other objections, to the Gresham Charter in particular, have been fully dealt with by Mr. Busk, so I need not trouble the Commission further in that direction. 1067. Is there any point on which I have not ques- tioned you with regard to which you would like to state anything or give any information to the Commission ? I should like to say, as one who has been engaged as a teacher of anatomy in a large medical school, that we always found that the London University men were, as a rule, the most industrious and the best students ; and I believe myself that, given only a good primary educa- tion and a man of average ability, with, perhaps, a little more than average industry, he might obtain the M. B. and M.D. of London University; and for myself I should be glad to see a much larger proportion of medical students take the degrees of the University of London. I believe that increased facilities for taking that degree without infringing the standard, would induce a larger number to come to the University of London. 1068. Sapposing this new University to be esta- blished, would it injure the London University to any great extent p—I rather gather from the report of the last Commission that that was the fear of the Commis- sioners. That is contained in Clause 16. 1069. You still have a large field—all the private students—and you would have the whole of England, who have nothing to do with Lor.don, who would still come to you, and if your degree was still very valu- able and more valuable than anything which would be given by this new body, you would still have a number of people anxious to take it ?—I believe that in view of the good work that the London University has done in raising the standard of medical examination it would be far better either that another University should be established, or that the University of London should cease to be, rather than that the medical standard of its degree should be lowered. ] 070. But this would not be anything like knocking the London University on the head. It would only have a very small effect in diminishing its popularity, would it ?—The Medical Faculty lias been regarded as one of the most distinguished, and I should be sorry that medical students in London should be largely induced to go to another London University for a lower grade degree than that which Ave give. I am afraid that would not teud in the direction of raising medical education. Much has been said with regard to the tendency of the syllabuses of London University to narrow the range of teaching. I should like to say that in the Medical Faculty that remark seems hardly to apply. So far from causing the attention of the student to diverge from Iris studies I think that so far the Preliminary Scientific Examination has wisely directed the studies of intending medical graduates into scientific channels. Had it not been for the Pre- liminary Scientific Examination of the University of London, and the examinations in chemistry, physics, and biology, there would probably have been no scientific teaching, or scientific teaching of a very rudimentary character, in some, at any rate, of the medical schools of London. And as to the syllabuses narrowing the area of study or teaching, it seems to me in some cases to err rather on the side of width than . F 4
    digitised image 1
    digitised image 2
    digitised image 3