Minutes of evidence taken by the Royal Commissioners appointed to consider the draft charter for the proposed Gresham University in London ... / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of Her Majesty.

  • House of Commons
Date:
1894
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Licence: Public Domain Mark

Credit: Minutes of evidence taken by the Royal Commissioners appointed to consider the draft charter for the proposed Gresham University in London ... / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of Her Majesty. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by Royal College of Physicians, London. The original may be consulted at Royal College of Physicians, London.

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    1391. Do you put all the schools upon the same level as being all up to the very best standard ?—I have already said, I think in answer to Lord Reay, that I did not—more especially in the science department. 1392. But you would in the medical department or surgical?—I should think the distinction was not so much one of school as of individual teachers. 1393. Then you would not make the same statement of the teaching in every one of the schools—that it was the very best ?—My last answer implies that I should not. 1394. Is it not the case that there are in some of the schools a great number of specialistic Chairs each devoted to special subjects, such as the throat and so on, to a much larger extent than we have in Scotland ?—As a rule those stand upon a lower plane to the regular lectures ; they are more in the nature of demonstrations. 1395. By whom are the teachers appointed in the various London Schools ?—Usually by committee—the Medical Committee. They are usually chosen from members of the staff. 1396. (Sir William Savory.) Their names are sub- mitted to the Governors ?—Yes. 1397. (Professor Bamsay.) Their names are chosen by a Committee ?—Yes. 1398. And the report is sent up to the Governors, I suppose, just as appointments at University College are sent into the Council ?—I oannot speak with definite knowledge on the subject. 1399. But the appointment is really made by the teaching body, and it is approved of by the governors of the hospital as a matter of form—as a matter of course ?—I really do not know very much about it. 1400. Are all the appointments in all schools, as a rule, confined to those students who have been educated at that particular school ?—As a rule, but occasionally members of the staff are elected from other schools. 1401. Is that frequent ?—No doubt there is a general tendency to supply vacancies from their own school. 1402. As a matter of fact is not promotion through the different teacherships regulated mainly by seniority ? —Promotion on the staff is almost entirely by seniority. 1403. Then seniority may lift a man from one subject to another if it is a more important one ?—It may not necessarily imply that he ■will assume the chair occupied by his predecessor. 1404. May it not imply that in the ordinary course of things a member of the staff rises from one particular post to another particular post ?—Yes, that is very often the case. 1405. And very often without a teacher having a special qualification ?—I am not prepared to give that opinion with regard to the constitution of the hospital staffs. 1406. Have you ever heard of a case of a man having been appointed to a subject about which he knew so little that he eventually gave ixp the post P—I am afraid appointments have been given to members of the medical staff who have not previously exhibited special knowledge of those departments. 1407. But have you heard of a case of a man having held such a post for six months and then resigning it because he knew nothing about it ?—I am not aware of an instance of that kind, but I can imagine its occurrence. (Sir William Savory.) It is not right to say that, the appointments are made by seniority. In the Medical Schools in London, it is supposed that the fittest man is chosen for the post. When a man once gets on the staff, it is a very different matter. Then unless there is something against him, he rises in rotation on the staff. But it is different from the school. (Professor Bamsay.) I presume that the teachers are taken out of the staff, are they not ? (Svr William Sa,vory.) Not necessarily. (Professor Bamsay.) Then, is it possible for a school if it had no really first rate surgical teacher, for instance, to take a surgeon from another school p (Sir William, Savory.) I do not know an instance. 1408. Take each subject separately ; would you have the same guarantee for getting for every post the very best men available, as you would if the appointments W. J. Collins, were open to all the whole world ?—It is no concern Esq., M.D., of mine to defend the constitution of the Medical M.S., B.Sc, Schools. F.R.C.S. 1409. Now there is one last question upon the subject „ T ~„ of examinations. Your remarks, of course, have refer. ' UDe ence mainly to science, and to medical science?—No doubt in the main. 1410. When you say that it is a very undesirable thing for the teacher to be an examiner of his own student, and when you say that it is quite unnecessary that he should be the examiner of his own student, out of fair- ness to them you refer to those subjects in which a cer- tain amount of knowledge is required to prove that a student has more or less covered the subject;—that he has a certain amount of knowledge, not that his mind has been trained in a particular way ?—I should think that training had a share in the knowledge. 1411. Have you had any experience in relation to such subjects as philosophy or history ?—I included those in my graduation. 1412. Take the Philosophy School at Oxford, and the Philosophy School at Cambridge, do you think it would be altogether fair, or desirable, or, in fact possible, that students who had been trained in the Philosophy Schools at Oxford or Cambridge, respectively, should be examined in philosophy by a total outsider, who knew nothing except philosophy at large ?—I should think it most desirable that they should. 1413. Without his knowing anything of the particular lines which philosophy took in those places ?—I should thiuk that philosophy was a subject in which it was most desirable that the results of the teaching of one should be examined by another. 1414. Can you tell me of any two teachers of philo- sophy whose conception of what a philosophical cause should be would be altogether the same ?—I am afraid I canDot. My preparation for examination in philo- sophy at the London University was entirely confined to text-books. 1415. That is exactly an answer to my question. It must be confined to text-books in cases of that kind. Is it not rather this, that the view is maintained from the point of view of a teacher who wishes to make the most of the mind of his student by developing such originality as he possesses—whether it is in harmony with the teacher's views or not, would be immaterial— by drawing out some original power of mind, as con- trasted with a mere system of examination founded on text-books like that of the University of London ?—No doubt it is regarding graduation from a totally different stand point. 1416. One is the point of view of the educator and the other the point of view of a tester. Having the two together, the outside examiner and the inside examiner, gives security for the adequacy of the test ?—I think the tester has been the epucator, certainly in the Medical Faculty of the Scotch Universities. 1417. When you object to a control of the examination by teachers is not that met by the very fact brought out by Mr. Anstie that Avhat is desired by teachers over the country at large is that they shall have men who know what teaching means amongst the examining body, not necessarily that teachers shall examine the students they themselves have taught ? That is what you main- tain is attained under the present system of Edinburgh University ?— I dare say. 1418. And that would be obtained under the draft scheme of the Senate by which the teaching bodies in London would have a direct voice with regard to both examining and teaching?—[No answer']. 1419. (Lord Bea'y.) After the orgainzation of the Medical Faculty would you place a medical school under the Board of Studies ?—I do not think medical teaching in London has suffered from the independence of medical schools up to the present time. 1420. Would you make the teachers at the various medical schools professors of the teaching University? —That is largely a question of name I should apprehend, whether they are Collegiate or University professors. 1421. If they were members of the Faculty of Science or Medicine of the new University they would have in some way or another to be recognised by that Univer- sity. How would you propose to establish the con-
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